One thing that seems to be overlooked by the 'bug in' crowd seems to be steps in energy needs reduction. Perhaps this just isn't talked about, or more likely, this is overlooked. Most of you that read the threads of this board regularly probably know by now that I spend a lot of time and effort on becoming energy efficient and hope to be self sustaining in the near future. I like, but don't hug trees and will burn them in a heartbeat if it come down to the tree surviving or me. Call me strange but I prefer good people over good trees. There are plenty of Guru's on the net who know far more than I, so I would expect you to confirm your information before accepting it. Honestly, if the grid goes down would you rather your house burn energy like a Kenworth or more like a Honda Civic? The choice is yours.
Over the last few years I have halved my electrical energy consumption based on one golden rule of renewable energy. "It costs far less to save energy that to produce it." If you periodically check the air pressure in the tires of you vehicle and/or get regular tuneups you understand the principal, at least with your vehicle. The initial expense of saving energy is a 'pay it forward' expense with the higher cost of a LED light vs incandescent or CFL. (currently quality LED lights use about 40% of the energy of a comparable Compact Fluorescent Light and about 10% of the energy needed for an Incandescent Light of equal illumination)
Tuning up your car and tuning up your house are two completely different things. I'm going to ramble in odd directions but pass on some of what I know that can be shown on my electrical utility bill. Lets start with the big power hog in some homes. Ye olde boob tube! I used to have a 42" rear projection TV that hogged 400+ watts of electricity and who knows what (30 watts if I was lucky???) in 'standby' (instant on). I upgraded to a 40" LCD TV that burns 160 watts while running/playing and burns 0.6 watts in standby. Net gain = 240 watts (at least) while watching and 30 watts while idle.
HINT: That 1994 Sony Trinitron CRT TV might not be the best thing for your electrical consumption especially if you are relying on off grid power. It was great in it's day but not 'today'.
A typical incandescent light is little more than an electrical heater with light being a 10% byproduct. Please, read that again and let it sink in... If you doubt me at all, Google is your friend (at least in this case).
I have a lamp that lights up my computer desk while I am on the computer. It burns 4 watts of power and even my aging eye's have no trouble seeing in this light. To put that into perspective (please humor me here) go and open your fridge door. Look at the light and realize I am burning 10% of the power needed for the typical incandescent refrigerator light to clearly see my 5 foot wide computer desk. In a nutshell LED lights kick butt, with few exceptions. A reasonable quality LED light uses about 10% of the power of an incandescent light providing equal illumination. You be the judge on what you want to feed during a grid shutdown.
LED lights come in all flavors from really harsh 'blue' lights (you may want to stock up on dollar store lights if you really like harsh blue light, don't ask me how I know that) to warm whites to yellow light very much like incandescent bulbs that we are used to. Once you get used to white light from an LED, incandescent (yellow) light looks like it is having a nap while you are trying to see. My personal favorite 'bang for you buck' LED lights are made by "Lights of America" and are available at Walmart. Good light and low price works for me. I would strongly suggest that you unpack only one light of a given type and test it to see if you like it. Doing this will allow far easier returns than 6 opened lights of the same type if you don't like them.
Replacing lights in your home. When buying LED lights to start replacing lights in your home that are used the most. Living room, kitchen, family room, perhaps den. The cold room/root cellar? Not so much and if you spend that much time in the root cellar, I really don't think I want to know the details... 🙄 I think you get the picture, replace high use bulbs first and work you way down to low use bulbs last.
Spring wound timers: I ran into a shocking 😯 discovery that my Microwave oven (5 years old?) uses 20 watts of electricity (often referred to as a 'vampire load') sitting on the counter doing nothing other than showing the time. Seriously, that's half the power used to light up your fridge with the door open, to illuminate a simple led clock. I'll be honest, I tried a switched power bar but kept forgetting to turn off the power bar after using the microwave. Saved energy, near zero. Having a Renewable Energy (RE) hobby I count watts. 20 watts of 'vampire load' is not acceptable to me.
Solution: Building an outlet with a spring wound timer. If you have no idea how electricity works and wires seem like worms to you, get someone who knows much better to build this for you. I wired a spring wound timer into a PVC box with a wall outlet beside the timer. A 'power in cord' and plug runs between the box and a wall outlet. With the unit plugged in and the microwave oven plugged into the timer, I dial up a few minutes of connection time and turn on the microwave oven when it is used. When I am done, the power to the microwave tuns of within a few minutes which brings power consumption to ZERO, right where it belongs.
Rest assured this timer will take a long time to pay for itself on energy saved BUT in the event of an extended power outage/grid down when I am counting on solar/battery power, this unit will be pay off large. 20 watts of solar production costs about the same as 100 watts of energy reduction.
Just food for thought in a grid down situation,
Radar
Than= I’d rather be rich than poor.
Then= I first became hungry then I ate.
There = She is there now.
Their = They have their things.
They're = They're going to the mall.
To = They came to the house.
Too = That's too bad.
Great post BTR. I love what you have done with your microwave. We are extremely energy conscious and have been slowly replacing compact florescent lights with LED lights room by room. However This tends to be an expensive project and definitely does not save money in the short term. Try Costco as they have the LED light for almost half the price of Walmart.
When I get home from work, I turn off all the lights that my wife has left on, especially the bathroom light and vent fan. 😐
"We 'Prep.' to live after a downfall, Not just to survive."
I find vertical fridges terribly inefficient (even the high efficiency ones)... open the door and all the cold pours out.. I'm thinking of doing something like this:
http://johnlvs2run.wordpress.com/2009/10/08/chest-fridge-conversion/
"Beets, Blacksmithing, Bow hunting"
ranger2012...my husband replaced our on/off switch for the fans with timed ones. It gives you options in increments from 5 minutes up and are available in home improvement stores. We would often realize too late that a fan had been left on, not only wasting power but sucking our heated air up the chimney.
"It's better to look ahead and prepare than to look back and regret"
I like where you're going with this. For those that will want to produce their own power during a grid down scenario, conservation is key!
Refrigerators are energy hogs by nature. Learning to live using less power now will make life without the grid much more comfortable.
Freezing food is probably the easiest, yet most energy intensive method of food storage.
Learning how to preserve food without refrigeration by canning, dehydrating, salting, fermenting etc. will allow you to store food safely when you may not want to or be able to run a refrigerator or freezer.
There will however be a use for a fridge, so you may want to check out an RV model that runs on 12V DC power and propane as well as grid power.
Lighting is important for security and let's face it, you can only stock up on so much kerosene and candles.
I like the LED bulb idea and will be soon changing out my CFL bulbs with them.
Energy production costs money. The more energy you use, the more batteries you need. With more batteries comes more solar panels (or a bigger wind turbine, micro hydro plant etc).
Heating is the biggest energy hog that I have taken care of. We heat almost exclusively with wood. My crawlspace is the only thing heated with electricity as it is not possible to fit a woodstove in a 3 foot high space. To take care of this in a grid down situation, I have a blower fan mounted to the back of my woodstove with a metal flex pipe that leads to the crawlspace that I can power from a very small solar setup. The solar system for this is still on the "to get" list, but for now I can power it from a generator or an inverter from my car. As a backup to that I also have a small propane heater and keep 40 lbs of propane on hand that will heat this space to just above freezing for several weeks.
Also, when our desktop computer died, we replaced it with a laptop that uses much less power.
I loved the line about the light being a by product and that it gives off heat, It made me smile.. its the very reason that I have stocked case of those lights before they are not allowed to be got anymore! While they may suck the power down, as a small farm, sometimes the heat that comes off that single bulb can make the difference between something freezing or not, and when you can set them to a timer, its even better.
Great post and followup, enjoyed reading it..
http://livingmydreamlifeonthefarm.wordpress.com/
I like where you're going with this. For those that will want to produce their own power during a grid down scenario, conservation is key!
Refrigerators are energy hogs by nature. Learning to live using less power now will make life without the grid much more comfortable.
Freezing food is probably the easiest, yet most energy intensive method of food storage.
Learning how to preserve food without refrigeration by canning, dehydrating, salting, fermenting etc. will allow you to store food safely when you may not want to or be able to run a refrigerator or freezer.
There will however be a use for a fridge, so you may want to check out an RV model that runs on 12V DC power and propane as well as grid power.
Lighting is important for security and let's face it, you can only stock up on so much kerosene and candles.
I like the LED bulb idea and will be soon changing out my CFL bulbs with them.
Energy production costs money. The more energy you use, the more batteries you need. With more batteries comes more solar panels (or a bigger wind turbine, micro hydro plant etc).
Heating is the biggest energy hog that I have taken care of. We heat almost exclusively with wood. My crawlspace is the only thing heated with electricity as it is not possible to fit a woodstove in a 3 foot high space. To take care of this in a grid down situation, I have a blower fan mounted to the back of my woodstove with a metal flex pipe that leads to the crawlspace that I can power from a very small solar setup. The solar system for this is still on the "to get" list, but for now I can power it from a generator or an inverter from my car. As a backup to that I also have a small propane heater and keep 40 lbs of propane on hand that will heat this space to just above freezing for several weeks.
Also, when our desktop computer died, we replaced it with a laptop that uses much less power.
May I suggest keeping an eye on Princess Auto flyers http://www.princessauto.com/pal/ and watch for sales on muffin (computer type) fans in the surplus section of the store. The fans are usually run by 12V and if you find them noisy wiring two or more in series will reduce the speed (and noise level) of the fans considerably. If you look at the current rating on the label (usually on the motor cover) of the fan you will see they use very little electricity. Those fans still move a fair amount of air.
I would also suggest a thermostat with the sensor (this might mean the whole thermostat???) installed in your crawl space to switch the heating vent fan on and off.. I used a similar set up to move waste heat from above the furnace and water heater to heat a crawl space under the third level of a back split house. This made the floor of the family room much warmer and more comfortable. We turned the thermostat down by 4 degrees (saving about $30 per month in the winter) and the family room still felt warmer than before. The materials cost (free 4" PVC conduit) was about $100 in the year 2000. BTW a toilet flange bought at a plumbing supply store makes a great mount for a 4" muffin fan. From there 4" PVC electrical conduit lengths and elbows makes for easy construction of your vent system.
Just saying...
Than= I’d rather be rich than poor.
Then= I first became hungry then I ate.
There = She is there now.
Their = They have their things.
They're = They're going to the mall.
To = They came to the house.
Too = That's too bad.
I have a cold room in my heated basement, it was in the house when I bought it. The room is not that large but it is very well insulated even the 8" thick door. There is a small refrigeration unit in room. I was able to cut back on the power consumption considerably and fairly easily. Although the room is not on an outside wall. the closest exterior wall is only 8"away, I was able to run a 2" plastic line from the room to (and through) the outside wall. I made a box to fit on the outside end of the pipe. The box contains a 12V computer fan, one of the 6" larger ones plus a screen to keep the mice out. The wiring for the fan runs through the line into the room where I connected it to the existing temperature sensor. I also insulated around the pipe. Originally I provided the 12v power with a small plug in type power supply for a kids toy.
The room is set to and maintains 40°C all year. I have saved a ton of hydro by not using the compressor for the refrigeration unit for six months of the year. The room is so well insulated the fan hardly ever need to run. A five years ago I went one step further and replaced the power supply with an old 12V car battery hooked up to a solar cell and a charge controller. The solar cell is not a large one it is about 14" square.
I find that these low cost jerry rigged solar systems are great for low current applications. I have an almost identical system in my gazebo that powers the LED lights and an old radio through a small inverter. I did not use a charge controller at first but I found that it overcharged my battery. This system has been up and running for about seven years. Notice I said old radio, that is because I would never connect sensitive electronics to a cheap modified sine wave inverter. Anyway there are some very low cost solar solutions for some applications that work just great.
With a very low draw, such as a computer fan or some LED lights, would a car battery stand up over time?
I might just have what I need on hand to get a system like this running for my crawl space heating.
I just worry a bit about the car battery, but if it never really discharges very far it should stand up.....right?
Awesome thread below the radar never took into consideration about the energy mostly been focusing on food water and stuff and bugging out
Preparedness is like a condom , I've rather have it and not need it, rather than need it and not have it
I recently explained battery types to a fellow who was just getting into batteries for a small solar system. He was asking for my thoughts on Marine and Golfcart batteries as his options. To save my sorry fingers and a lot of time I'll re post here. I hope you enjoy!
My take on batteries is like the story of "The Tortoise, the Three Legged Raccoon and the Hare". (remember, you read it here first!) 😉
The (hare) Car battery has thin lead plates to be able to discharge a large amount of electricity in a big hurry and then recharge it very quickly as well. (think about 100 Amp alternators)
The (three legged raccoon) marine battery isn't as fast to discharge or charge as a car battery because the lead plates are a bit thicker but it does have better 'staying power' than an equal sized car battery. (Most boats don't have 100 Amp alternators)
The (tortoise) golf cart battery has the thickest plates and just can't be rushed when charging or discharging. They are a true deep cycle battery which is what you want for storing home use electricity. This is why several are needed if you are running high powered devices (coffee pots, microwaves). With several batteries you could expect a good life span out of them starting your car, but who wants 600 to 800 lbs of batteries in their car?
Of the two choices you mentioned I would go with the golf cart batteries. The totally illogical moral of the story is 'Who wants a three legged raccoon... unless you have a boat???' No that's not it... ummm 'Slow and steady wins the race for battery banks'.
A simple rule of thumb when charging deep cycle batteries is you don't want to charge more than 5% of the battery total capacity at any time. For example two 6 volt golf cart batteries in series will give you about 100 or 110 Amp Hours (AH) @ 12V of electrical storage. You could safely charge them with about 90 to 100 watt (5 to 5.5 Amps) solar panel and expect good life out of the batteries (with reasonable maintenance of course).
If you are going to use a conventional lead acid battery I would suggest you build an insulated (R-10) plywood storage box and store them outside of your home. This prevents a build up of hydrogen gas and the 'ode de sulfuric acid' smell they will create while charging. The insulation in the box will help keep the batteries warmer on cold days which will make them more efficient. Batteries create some of their own heat both charging and discharging so even a few degrees warmer than the outside winter temperature will help.
Is that clear as mud? Sorry about getting long winded but as mentioned before I want you to not only understand exactly what you are doing but WHY you are doing it as well.
In answer to your question about using a car battery, keep an eye on the actual voltage of the battery after it has been powering whatever you hook up to it before you start recharging it. Check the battery at dawn if you are charging with solar. Above 12Volts is good, 11V is danger zone, 10.5 V or less, why don't you just shoot the battery and get it over with. If the car battery in question is 'just lying around, old and used' go for it because what do you have to lose. If you are purchasing a battery for this purpose there are much better choices readily available.
Running a fan and LED lighting... The muffin fan is probably a very low draw ( I have 3" muffin fans that draw 0.17 Amps @ 12V and I believe 4" fans draw about double that.) and would take a long time to draw down a car battery. Led lights: I have LED lights drawing as much as 10 Watts (above the kitchen sink) to as little as 0.3 Watt night lights. There just isn't enough information to begin to answer your question.
Battery size (cold cranking amps?) ?
What condition is the battery in? (how old? does it hold a charge?)
How are you charging the battery?
How many watts of LED light are you running?
How big is your computer fan and/or how many amps does it draw?
I'm not trying to be rude but do not have enough information to even hazard guess about the end result.
Than= I’d rather be rich than poor.
Then= I first became hungry then I ate.
There = She is there now.
Their = They have their things.
They're = They're going to the mall.
To = They came to the house.
Too = That's too bad.
I got the answers I was looking for and so much more on TSP.
Steven Harris was a guest for a 2 show series all about powering your home from batteries.
He covers the different types of batteries, how to charge them, how to hook them up to different things and so on.
Everyone should check it out...
http://www.thesurvivalpodcast.com/
As I learned from this, I know that I can use the old car battery if need be, but here is the one I am waiting to go on sale...
http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/4/Auto/3/Batteries/MarineBatteries/PRDOVR~0102799P/Group+27+Starting+and+Deep+Cycle+Battery.jsp?locale=en
I will eventually go with 2X6V golf cart batteries, but this one will get me started.
I will also likely forget about a solar panel for now and just recharge it from the car when the grid is down...listen to the podcasts for more about this.
Speaking from a lot of experience I would say stay away from CT batteries. I still have four of those operating but only four. Walmart batteries are a much better deal and Walmart replacemnet policy is a dream compared to the CT nightmare.
ICRCC, I guess I gravitate towards CT for the searchable website that lists all their products, but thank you for reminding me about their horrible return policy on batteries. I have had problems with them also. I will be watching Walmart and costco for a 100 AH, group 27 or higher deep cycle.
The first part of my project will be getting the fan. Once I know how much current it will draw, I can start looking at the other componenets.