So look at that picture of those blue capacitors again, don't think of them as capacitors but rather like the heart of the inverter and I now have access to that heart...the DC voltage the caps hold gets toggled 120 times a second (or is it 60 times?)to make 120vac. The Hbridge circuit, the output of the inverter, just flips this DC voltage back and forth to make AC. Do you think this circuit cares what voltage it flips? or where that voltage comes from? I will answer the first question, not really, the parameters are wide, there wide because the h bridge circuits voltage tracks the incoming battery voltage that is also wide (10.5 to 15.5).
Thus so long as the H bridge voltage is anywhere from 100 to 185vdc this inverter will run like a fine swiss watch, pumping out 120 vac all day long.
Ponder the thought...100 to 185vdc.hmmmm
all the previous stages in the inverter served just one purpose and that was to generate this H bridge voltage, all those fets, all those boost transformers, 90% of the components and weight of this inverter was just to get us to a voltage of 100 to 185 vdc.(from 12vdc)
Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.
If only there was some source of DC power at 100 to 185 volts that could be fed into this inverters H Bridge and by golly I bet we wouldn't need batteries to have 120 volts AC
Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.
I am about to take this thread side ways......Super caps, or Ultracaps...I last checked into this technology 5 or 6 years back. It was interesting as hell but the price was out of the realm of a working stiff.
Not now...look at this... https://www.amazon.ca/capacitor-module-engine-starting-CSDWELL/dp/B017FZ9BUM/ref=pd_sbs_504_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B017FZ9BUM&pd_rd_r=7082c833-e181-11e8-ae1c-55cfaf56a47b&pd_rd_w=UqG4i&pd_rd_wg=g3dHT&pf_rd_i=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_m=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB&pf_rd_p=d4c8ffae-b082-4374-b96d-0608daba52bb&pf_rd_r=JMWNGGST30HR5CPG370Q&pf_rd_s=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=JMWNGGST30HR5CPG370Q
These are now being used in place of car batteries...yes for starting your car! That board the caps are mounted on would fit in my hand, its the size of one of those red electrolytic caps in one of my previous pictures. That entire red capacitor bank in my picture had a capacity of 130000 uf. 130000 micro, that board holds 60f of capacitance, not micro but farads of capacitance. Roughly 450X as much power, and fits in my hand, and its only a little over a hundred bucks! These things are rated for over a million full cycles. I have already pulled out the visa and one is coming my way, with more to follow if this performs as advertised. This will light a welding rod no problem.
(actually wound up ordering 14 individual super caps,.. as it was half the price and free shipping, will just have to make my own board to mount them on) I will parallel two series strings of 7 to give me 143F of capacitance....now just for fun I ran these numbers through the joules calculator I previously posted...and if I entered everything correct I am getting some incredible power numbers.....Joules of energy stored =1.03e+4 if I understand that number correct it is 1030.0 joules of energy or the power to move 103 kg one meter!
(update looks like I need to order more in, just discussing this with others (living out by me)and they want me to set there 12 volt inverters up with these . So incomes another 14 super caps for others. This is good I will get others testing these as well. I will place my order for the rest in the next 2 hrs, anyone wanting to be set up with these message me in the next 2 hrs and I will add more caps to my order. no charge for me to wire these up, just for the caps.) Cost Will be about 95 total for 7 board mounted caps
Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.
It looks like delivery wont be until near the end of November so I have some time to wait.
this is fascinating stuff, I am reading comments like this from people using them.."I’ve been experimenting with the 2.5v 2600F Maxwell caps by putting six in series to make a 15V max. pack & putting those packs in parallel & running them from 14V down to 11V with a 1500 watt inverter connected to them. I’ve been able to run a small microwave for about 3 or 4 minutes and a small beer fridge for 9 minutes, a 9 watt led bulb for about 40 minutes,
That is incredible if true, I will learn for myself with the ones on order, if this pans out, I will order a serious amount of them
Here is a link for anyone wanting more info....
https://www.instructables.com/id/Lets-learn-about-Super-Capacitors-A-Practical-G/
and look at this... a 160vdc off the shelf unit that I could wire right into my H bridge... https://www.maxwell.com/images/documents/160VModule_DS_3000246_6.pdf
Note that they say a 10 year life, that's with complete cycling, I would only be using the power in the 100 to 160 volt range so life span is indefinite...
and I am only looking at these as supplemental to lead acid batteries not a replacement for them though with enough of these its very likely there could be a reduction in the size of my battery bank and a reduction in the amount (amphrs) of daily cyclying they see.The relatively little amount I have ordered in to gain experience with these caps, will likely only show there usefulness in the 0 to 5, 10, maybe 15 second time frame.
PS: Anyone out and about in my area who is operating a system at a voltage other than 12 volts, and who would like to try Ultra caps, pm me and if you order some in I would help you set them up...I would just like feedback on how they perform on higher voltage systems in return.
Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.
I have really been asleep at the switch. I completely missed that these things have gone main stream. Still pricey yes, but they are a one time purchase and your good for life... http://www.maxwell.com/images/documents/ESM_12V_DS_3000552_EN_2.pdf That one battery on the left side stores 32kwhrs (Peak) My entire battery bank is just 20kwhrs, and I am living large with that much.I am going to have to edumacate myself fast on these things.
The discharge curve sucks but there is a work around for that. I cant wait to get my grubby hands on some of these.
Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.
So while I wait for these caps to come on a slow boat from China, life goes on, Here is a picture of the voltage on my inverter at about 9 pm tonight
This would normally be a three alarm disaster. 11.3 volts is beyond discharged. Fire the genny up would normally be the battle cry with such a low voltage... but in my case I dont have good batteries to try and save by charging them up anymore, so i may as well gain experience in teasing out power, out of what by any ones standards would be dead batteries. Now luckily my bank is made up of parallel strings, and I still have multipule ones, I had 7, pulled 2 so I am down to five strings of two. Had my system been a single string at a higher voltage like 24, or 48 volts, I would be dead in the water, but thanks to the caps I have added that keep my fridge, frezzer and pressure pump starting up, all I really need to do is just coax only a few amps from each string. My total steady state draw (fridge and frezzer off at the moment) is 12.5 amps, that's 3 outside lights, 6 inside lights, one desktop computer,stereo, and one laptop running (lap top may be in sleep mode). So I am just milking 2.5 amps from each string of 5.
In my second post on this page I said....If only there was some source of DC power at 100 to 185 volts that could be fed into this inverters H Bridge and by golly I bet we wouldn't need batteries to have 120 volts AC
I hoped someone would have said, yes you can series up 4 or 5 30 volt grid tie panels and you would have a dc voltage to feed the H bridge and have ac Power with out needing batteries! at least when the sun was out! but no one did. Would that really work you wonder if I did so,... (with out going into detail)….Yes Ofcourse!
Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.
So while I impatiently wait for my first order of these super caps I am thinking ahead to my next step with these...The H bridge inside the inverter, where I already added those blue capacitors.
It looks like the cost to add super capacitors there is about 1100.00 Canadian dollars (due to the high voltage). Just too steep for me to do right now knowing I will be buying batteries next year. (back to add..correction...I could spend that much but no..In checking pricing further I can do the H bridge for about 300-400 now with less capacity than I first thought, but that capacity isn't needed as the voltage is much higher)
I am just going to have to wait a bit, but while I wait prices keep falling. I definitly will be doing this in the future...though for anyone thinking of doing the same I will caution you now that unlike the 12 volt dc side where you may get away with directly hooking up some super caps (though you should charge them up first) you will not get away with that at 170 vdc. The power at that voltage, with these type of caps, may very well destroy your inverter on power up. Those will for sure, need to have a on power up, soft charge circuit built (or a manual soft charge), and if you don't know what that means don't even think of doing this.
I have looked on you tube and no one has done this yet (storing the power in the inverter at 170vdc), the technoligy is just too young, but it is coming in fast now. For my system I spent rough 300.00 (on caps, the ones in transit) and what I have coming should be enough that I am no longer stressing my batteries on strike up when welding, or when running my big 16 inch cut off saw, that big heavy, steel cutting, blade takes a lot of power to come up to speed. If these things perform like they should they are a serious game changer as to how much battery capacity you need to buy, and should greatly extend the life span of the lead acid you do buy. Also, storing your power up at 170vdc level, sort of makes all those arguments about 12, 24 or 48 volts look ridiculass.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K8JIC-ov_Y
Those with low frequency inverters you are sol, cant do this !!
Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.
So I knew the h bridge voltage track's the battery voltage because I was able to measure it now that I have a place to measure it outside the inverter.
The voltage goes as high as 185vdc when the battery is at 15.3,15.5 roughly (equalizing voltage), and goes down to roughly 107vdc at 10 VDC. A huge, huge operating range!
So based on what I see here, using super caps on the h bridge will allow the caps to charge up to 175vdc during normal daily charging, isolate the caps after charging and then the stored charge can be dumped back into the h bridge buss to supply loads in the evening.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoWMF3VkI6U
Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.
Since I am still waiting, just for fun I worked out roughly how much power I am going to be adding to my system when these ultra caps arrive, somewhere around 1200Farads of capacitance (min), and at 12.7 volts that works out to over 100 000 joules of energy. I was impressed as hell with the previous 176 Joules I had added, especially with the performance from the ones on the H bridge, it saved my bacon and keeps all my motor loads running, I wouldn't have running water and freezers and fridge running had I not took action....now I will be adding orders of magnitude more storage with these incoming caps...it bogles my mind. I cant wait to evaluate how this much more power performs. Having lived vicariously through others when battery banks die I can say I know of no one else who has used batteries as shot as mine. Most people give up long before now, but I am enjoying this...its a great learning experience.
Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.
Ok, your sick of my posts and links on super capacitors..indulge me one last time and see the potential . This guy is just building his own portable system as nothing is being manufactured yet..but it gives you a idea of whats possible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pnXaENvCKc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y4pwcFyLOE
I have something like 4 drivable vehicles sitting around here, some with dead batteries. With one of these boxes I can get rid of the cost of replacing these batteries, just put it in whatever one I wish to drive...its light as a feather. My riding mower always has a dead battery and needs a boost, much easier with one of these.
This vid is from 2015 and he is talking about how the size has to come down, its the end of 2018, and the size already is droping, my 1200f of incoming caps will be about the size of his 433f cap bank.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqw8nwqyg4g
Think of lead acid batteries as a constant voltage power source. The Super caps can be thought of as a constant current power source, when combined together you have a near ideal power source.
and here is a guy using them to solve a problem for a mobile application https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf_p4-Vg-MA and a perfect example of there usefulness.
For stationary use, in off grid these will do wonders in extending the life of your lead acid, and reducing the stress on your batteries. We think and I am sure we have all heard that lead acid batteries give you instant power, and that is sort of true in a relative way but it actually is a chemical process that produces the power where as the Supercaps completely skip the lead acid chemical process and move charge way faster/efficiently do to lower internal resistance. Depending on amount of capacitance and how its hooked into your system you can have the (non consumable ) caps supply all your heavy cycling demands while your (consumable) lead acid can just loaf along supplying your gentle steady state loads.Way less stress on your batteries is what I am saying. (I am very experienced in stressing them!)
for those with lead acid batteries in a cool, maybe out doors condition, supplement your bank with some of these and get way better performance as they do not suffer from low temperatures the way lead acid does.
Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.
two bags of Supercaps arrived, I expect a couple more yet. It will be a bit before I get to use these. I have to go through each one, testing and charging/discharging. I expect not all will meet specs, and that's ok, this is a learning experience. I will cut one apart just to have a look, I will destroy a couple hitting them with over voltages just to see how they behave.I have to build two others boards of these caps before I get to build mine, but maybe by the weekend...
These are the exact size of a D cell, but way lighter
Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.
Ok, your sick of my posts and links on super capacitors..indulge me one last time and see the potential . This guy is just building his own portable system as nothing is being manufactured yet..but it gives you a idea of whats possible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pnXaENvCKc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y4pwcFyLOE
I have something like 4 drivable vehicles sitting around here, some with dead batteries. With one of these boxes I can get rid of the cost of replacing these batteries, just put it in whatever one I wish to drive...its light as a feather. My riding mower always has a dead battery and needs a boost, much easier with one of these.
This vid is from 2015 and he is talking about how the size has to come down, its the end of 2018, and the size already is droping, my 1200f of incoming caps will be about the size of his 433f cap bank.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqw8nwqyg4gThink of lead acid batteries as a constant voltage power source. The Super caps can be thought of as a constant current power source, when combined together you have a near ideal power source.
and here is a guy using them to solve a problem for a mobile application https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf_p4-Vg-MA and a perfect example of there usefulness.
For stationary use, in off grid these will do wonders in extending the life of your lead acid, and reducing the stress on your batteries. We think and I am sure we have all heard that lead acid batteries give you instant power, and that is sort of true in a relative way but it actually is a chemical process that produces the power where as the Supercaps completely skip the lead acid chemical process and move charge way faster/efficiently do to lower internal resistance. Depending on amount of capacitance and how its hooked into your system you can have the (non consumable ) caps supply all your heavy cycling demands while your (consumable) lead acid can just loaf along supplying your gentle steady state loads.Way less stress on your batteries is what I am saying. (I am very experienced in stressing them!)
for those with lead acid batteries in a cool, maybe out doors condition, supplement your bank with some of these and get way better performance as they do not suffer from low temperatures the way lead acid does.
Nope. Way out of my wheelhouse but I am am gathering insights, terms... and hope I can use one day. Confident others more electrically inclined will love this stuff. Keep it coming.
Be a good idea for folks to save your info in a word document file and keep handy!
Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.
Question for you Peppercorn or anyone else:
what solar use battery would you choose if money was not an object.
that lifespan with some moderate care was to be eight to ten years
that one could place batteries in unheated or perhaps marginally heated garage. this perhaps due to size and difficulty in bringing into basement or other hard to access area in a home/ up stairs etc
again, money not being an object and maybe needing more batteries to compensate for less management time ( babying the life of a battery.
Signed, curious in Ontario
I will put it this way, if someone else was paying the bill. I would be buying rolls batteries http://www.rollsbattery.com/about-us/ in 6 or 2 volt sizes, likely 6 volt, and in a model that has "cycle life vs discharge curve" like this one http://www.rollsbattery.com/battery/6-cs-25p/ and I would size the system for 20% discharge...note on that graph that that then equals 5000 cycles....close to 14 years!
though with the same battery if you used them harder, say to 50% discharge you still get over 9 years out of them.
Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.