When all our comfortable ammenities are gone, many people will die of hygeine related illnesses (ie preventable) I caught myself recently having only a half-baked plan for hygeine, more theoretical than actual. I think this is a helpful reality check:
Let's get concrete & specific, in real time... If your town or city's electical & plumbing systems fail tonight, well it won't be long before someone at your house hasta "go". What's your plan? You guys with acreages, farms, outhouses are miles ahead... maybe you can critique us city slickers on this ... 😉
1) What are you going to use for a toilet?
2) Where is it right now, could you get it for tonight? (without electrical lights to find it - and yes, walmart wil be closed)
3) What are you going to use for a seat?
4) Where is that right now, could you grab it for tonight?
5) Have you ever actually sat on it and "tried it out"?
6) Would your mom or dad or an elderly or youngerly person be able to use it if need be? Would they be able to get back up?
7) Where exactly would you put it?
8) After each use, what would be the means of keeping the smell down?
9) Where exactly is your needed material(s) for keeping the smell down, could you find it tonight?
10) Would you use if for both "#1" & "#2"? (pardon the techincal terms)
11) How would you prevent "backsplash" (would pose a great hygeine risk)
12) When would it likely be emptied?
13) Where specifically would it be emptied?
14) Who would have the honors?
15) How, specifically, would you clean the system?
16) Where, right now, are the tools for cleaning the system, could you have 'em tonight?
17) How would you prevent contamination/stench/flies in your yard (presuming you're dumping in your yard somewhere)?
18) If the grid & plumbing is down for an extended period, how will you process the waste on an ongoing basis - ie do you have a sustainable system?
19) If there were to be a large snow melt or record rainfall in the spring, would it spread e-coli throughout your yard?
20) Would you be ready to start tomorrow if need be?
21) Or does your plan include digging a hole or other preparations which aren't feasible to do in winter?
22) What about when you run out of toilet paper?
23) What other challenges do you think would be involved in dealing with this scenerio?
Entries will be judged by a panel of your peers! 🙂
Part 2 of the contest will be the handwashing system... another time.
I guess I'll go first...
1) I've got a hunter's toilet (green camo 5 gal bucket with toilet seat & lid) at an overpriced rate from Canadian Tire in Lloydmnister. I also found a beat up green chemical bucket on a dirt road which I hope to purchase another toilet seat for.
2) The hunter's toilet is on the top shelf in my little hallway closet nearby, I'd have to grab a candle to see my way, but I know where matches & candles are to achieve that
3 & 4) The seat came with it & the unit is together.
5) I haven't even sat on it, I don't know if the seat feels flimsy or sturdy, whether it might tend to slip sideways or whether it is secure..
6) I think sitting on a 5 gal pail could pose a problem for an elderly or youngerly person... some can't bend that far, some can't get up, equilibrium might be a problem, might be high for a youngster. I would have a better idea about this if I had of ever sat on it.
7) I'd start with it in my bathroom, at least for the winter.
8) I have a half a pail of sawdust, which I understand is excellent for smothering the smell, so I'd use that, but I'd run out very soon. I might then go rustle around in my garden shed where I have a bit of dried up quack grass that I'm dying to take revenge on, I guess I would try to cover it with that to buy me some time to figure out what next... I would say that in about 5 days I would be out of both sawdust & dried quack grass, so there's a big lacuna in my provisions...
9) The sawdust is in a white bucket on the upper left hand shelf of my messy garage, there's a second small batch of it in a small cardboard box on the floor in there somewhere... I think
10) Yes, I'm gonn pee & poo it it
11) I'd hafta count on the sawdust or quackgrass to keep the stuff from backsplashin' me in the arse
12) It'd be emptied when the stench or weight of it became too weildly. If it didn't stench too bad, I'd put a proper lid tightly on after filling the first bucket (weak point exposed as I realize I don't know where a lid is that will seal this particular bucket tightly, the lid that came with the toilet seat has a gap all around it, doesn't seal tightly at all.) If I could successfully seal the bucket, and use the toilet seat on the other bucket, I'd be off to the races & could fill the second one, then carry them out together. (I got that advice from humanure website -Note to greenhorns - it's easier to carry 2 five gal pails than 1 cause it balances you out)
13) I might put it in my front yard wire compost bin, but I'd have a challenge hiding what it is. I might take it to the back corner of my lot where I've got a bunch of weeds piled. In either case, the contents would slop down the piles and spread onto the nearby ground. This exposes another weakness in my plan... hm...
14) I'd be doin' the honors
15) Eww, I'd hafta take my toilet brush, (I need to check if the handle's long enough for a 5 gal pail), I'd problee try to put some snow in and swirl the brush around first. But water would be better. I don't have a lot of that to spare, but I guess I'd have to carry our one of my milk jugs of water and some of my green cleaner, give it a spray & swirl, dump on the pile and carry everything in being it's winter...
16) Yes, I could find everything to clean the system tonight, but I'd hate ta waste my water on that... need more water...
17 &18) I need to build a properly contained compost bin in my backyard and I need some straw or weeds to line it and hold the manure in... No, I have a sustainable idea, not a sustainable system... I need to buy or download the free humanure book & get more informed. I need to buy a compost thermometer from the humanure website so that I could ensure that the manure reached high enough temperatures to kill any pathogens
19) Yes, I think the stuff would wash down the sides of the heap and spread, need to get some straw or something to act as a biological sponge...
20) I'm not ready, need to try the bucket, get more cover material, get a tight fitting lid, the humanure book, the compost thermometer, build backyard composter, get straw... My plan is too theoretical, need to make it material.
21) I saved some old phonebooks, would have to make do for winter and stock up on leaves in summer I guess!
Sheesh, that was way too long, but I think it was a good reality check for me! I need to start by getting that bucket down...
Update: I just pulled out the hunter toilet, brand name Reliance Luggable Loo, it looks a bit less than 5 gal, but doesn't say. It's made in Canada!! Yay!!! Seat feels sturdy. Unit feels stable... Too low for older people, or people with joint problems I would think. Comes with a sample of stinky chemical that i don't want anything to do with cause I want my yard organic. Got it in hunting section of Canada Tire.
Sorry this endeavor made for such long posts... I may be competing only with myself!
I have a 5 gallon bucket with dedicated toilet set with lid. Kitty litter for absorption and odor control. Industrial garbage bags for liners... should be good for 24 hours each. When full out to the garage for storage in the winter. Summer... Hmmm. Liquid waste will go down the toilet and into the local sewer system. One thing that just came to mind for anyone who is hooked up to a municipal sewer system. Make sure you keep the "J" traps under your sinks, toilets and in any basement drains filled with water. Otherwise you run the risk of sewer gas infiltrating your home. A few boxes of vinyl gloves will keep your hands clean when disposing of filled bags. Just my thoughts.
JAB
Thanks, JAB,
Now, if it happens tomorrow & lets say winter lasts til Mid March, that's 105 bags of poo in your garage. That's a lot of material to deal with in the spring... I'd suggest formulating a plan. I think the likely idea most would have is to carry it off property, and dump it in a randomly selected spot. Lots of people will be doing that, if they survive... that is. It's rude and will add to the chaos and hazards of the times -roadways landmined with human excrement. Not only that, but it will be a lot of work to carry the waste from your yard a sufficient distance away. You won't want to keep that up very long. It seems to me you have to think out the further implications of your system - disposing of the bags, summertime hygeine, how to keep from spreading pathogens, and how to make the whole thing sustainable over potentially a very long haul - sooner or later you'll run out of garbage bags.
We have 2 pail type with seats from canadian tire, have purchased bags for it ...Urine in a container and poured into a 5gallon water bottle for women can just be urinated in for men, also a comode for disabled people is fine to place over the pail for more comfort. urine in the garden and shrubs/tress and fecal matter can be composted also. There are compost toilets and humanure works great if you have access to saw dust
ok, so if it started today, first thing is that all pee goes in the pee bucket and is dumped at least twice daily in the big compost pile, be that spring, summer, fall or winter.. there is no reason what so ever for pee to end up using any of my dry materal before composting.
As a young child on the farm, we didn't have running water, but did have the outhouse, because we were little, there was always a icecream bucket with lid for night or very cold winter pee's.
Second, as my mom and MIL both can't make it down the stairs from the upstairs bedrooms to the bathroom due to age and mobility issues, we have a proper camping toilet with a built up wooded base to get it to the correct sitting height, this would work well for any elderly folks that would be with us..
We also have a go chair with the honey pot, which was in fact a study second hand chair got that DH put the hole in as my mom found the portable toilet to narrow and she also didn't want to have the potty stay dirty for more then a day, so she perferred one that could be carried down and cleaned and emptied and then taken back up for the night.
As for #2, we have a good amount of lime, peat moss, but what we don't have is the ability to make a proper outhouse easily on our farm, we have a far to low of a typical water level, what I do have however is a very large premade compost bin that is my " don't want it in the regular compost piles" bin, and that is where it would have to go for a quick pinch, however having said that, as soon as possable, we would put together a special composting bin for our #2 waste and then compost it out.
As for knowing where the things are, yes..
As for the toilet paper, I have a huge supply of baby wash cloths, soap bars, and pan/small hand scrub board and a small pull out drying rack in my bathroom for them to dry on, I also have old flannel sheets stored in case I needed to make more at a later point in time, I have a small closed lid bucket that is sized perfectly for the back of the toilet lids that you can put your used in with a bit of baking soda (which I typically have a couple 50 pd bags of at any time on the farm) and a pretty basket that can hang off the toilet roll holder for all the clean ones to be held in.
I do have a fairly large stash of small honey pot bags that would fit the chamber pot if you had loose stools and really needed to use them instead, and I have cases of bleach, as well as a good stock of pool dry shock..
So that's my basic plans..
http://livingmydreamlifeonthefarm.wordpress.com/
Since I live off grid now in a non traditional manner (non traditional for the last 20 yrs that is) I do not normally have access to flushers unless we are out and about.
My situation is small so the systems are small, and portable. I have two Human Manure info articles, have also researched what others have said and done as well. If they do not tell people, but reading will find lots of people in the suburbs and small farms are switching to human manure systems as well. They use soft woods and leaves for the composting. Right now I am not able to make a human manure system, but will be doing so in the future.
Right now I use a bucket style purchased from Canadian Tire, the shorter stout version, by the other. System is used with kitty litter in the late fall to spring time, dispose of in dumpsters. Pee into a 1 gallon former pure water jug, dispose of into the ground. The other system is the chemical toilet for the spring/summer/early fall months. This can be disposed of directly down into the earth into a slew system to filter farther down as well. There are natural alliteratives to the blue pucks or liquids.
Even in summer the kitty litter will keep most smells down to almost non existent. My system has a two part lid which helps in this and a built in seat. The drawback is that it is so low to the ground, it should be up on a raised stand, especially if anyone has joint issues.
Here is a link to the Permies forum (permaculture) where they discus alternative toilet paper, some interesting info there including using natural plants.
http://www.permies.com/t/4751/homestead/alternatives-toilet-paper http://www.permies.com/t/4751/homestead/alternatives-toilet-paper
In ancient times, the Romans had built little sit down areas, with running water underneath them to carry the (affluent/effluent - sorry can not remember which way to spell it, but the rich folk will know what they are called!) away. They also used brushes to wash with, later someone invented bidets but only good if you have lots of water and water pressure.
For washing up, remember you can just go simple as well no need to get all high tech. Hand spritzers like the Windex ones can be filled with water and mixtures of soaps or other cleansers like Tea Tree and GSE - Grape Seed Extract , a few drops goes a long way. I have 3, one for clear rinse water, one for dish soap, one for body washing.
For showers, you can use the spritzers as well, or buy a 1-3 gallon garden sprayers. Look to the ones with air pump up systems, I buy them from Princess Auto in the spring when they come on sale. Price $15-$25 vs. $50+ normally. Put in 1/2 gallon of room temp water, boil up some water (heat it up) on the rocket stove or propane system, then mix together until it is comfortable. Bring into shower area, use it! You will find that once you are hauling water and self heating it up, not letting it run while your standing there soaping up etc, then you will only use about a half a gallon or so, sometimes less water, sometimes more. Love those little plastic scrubbers you get as well, look like little plastic poofs, for washing up in the shower. Works great eliminates hand cloths and the smell that is associated with them. Have also found that you use less water with them as well. Not sure if you could use them for a toilet paper alternative, but someone creative might try it out.
Just as a thought, although I do like the idea of doing the Human Compost, I would not use that stuff for root veggies, just saying! Would mix it into other stuff, dilute it then use it for say, the outdoor vine type systems, like grapes and climbing peas etc. Or for enhancing the natural compost in the nearby tree yards, to assist them in their growth, just saying.. just putting it out there, as it were.
Hey WildE is "nearby tree yards" a euphemism for "not in my backyard"? 😆
mother nature needs a helping hand or err.... you know
A very nice sturdy one can be made with a 5 gal bucket and 'box' over it with 1x4 or your choice of wood. The top can be OSB or plywood. Measure so that its just above the bucket, cut hole and attach bought seat for a regular toilet.
Screw that on to lid of OSB/plywood.
Lift lid and put in pail, Put lid back on and your in business. 🙂
Or you can fasten lid to box but then you will have to lift the box to remove and add a pail.
You can make a 2 seater for different 'business', if you chose.
You can paint it, stain it, burn designs in it or whatever you choose to fit your ummm decor. Heck even wall paper it if you like.
Mine has a padded seat, warmer in winter times. 😆 Dang seat lasted a few years already.
Sawdust is the perfect thing to stop odors well.
Anyone cutting wood will have a pretty good supply of it on hand.Sawmills have acres of the stuff they just burn when they have to much. When they see you drive in for another load they are smiling, cause now less for them to deal with.
I keep a pail of sawdust right beside the toilet. No searching.
Extra odd wood around? Build a compost bin and stash your contents in there when bucket filled. Cover over with more sawdust or weeds/leaves, whatever you have around. No smell, flies or problem as long as its covered.
Once you get your compost pile going, use a spade and ONLY for that, make a hole in the center and put in new stuff and cover over again.
After a while it will compost and it goes down...so don't panic when you think its gonna be full to soon. Mind you can always build another one and leave that one to 'finish'.
Have a toilet brush that hangs by the compost so its only used there.
Add some water or snow if need be, wash it out then pour over compost pile..no where else!
I leave my buckets after they are cleaned out, outside to air a little. Not really needed but that's just what I do.
Short on water to wash out pail in winter or lines frozen? Collect snow and melt inside, in another pail. Keep filling that pail as the snow melts cause it takes a lot of snow to get a little water. In summer you can catch rain off a roof.
You can use any pail thats been used for whatever, they don't have to be new for a sawdust toilet.
2nd method of no composting pile, some use. Have many pails with lids. Set out and leave to compost in those pails. Takes a few pails tho.
As for how to get it with the lights out. I have both shake flashlights and solar ones (as well as reg. battery ones), also candles and oil lamps if need be. If all that fails I use the 'feel and touch' of walls to get there and hope little Johnny didn't leave his toy truck in the hallway. 😮
Should have added. If you need it higher, for those with bad joints. Build your box a little higher and add pieces of 2x's under the pail to bring it to level of top. If not high enough,nail another set of 2x's to the first ones, as a platform.
A sense of humor is absolutely essential to survival.
Thankyou guys all so much for your input... It's helping me fill the gaps in my plan, so that one day I'll be ready to roll... I'm just not around any mills for sawdust... so I have to work that out... as well as a few other details. Old time gardener, I think your system is pretty much what I want to work towards, just have to be a little covert about it - after all I'm in town!
Thankyou guys all so much for your input... It's helping me fill the gaps in my plan, so that one day I'll be ready to roll... I'm just not around any mills for sawdust... so I have to work that out... as well as a few other details. Old time gardener, I think your system is pretty much what I want to work towards, just have to be a little covert about it - after all I'm in town!
Your quite welcome.
If you have a Buckerfields (or other farm store) around you can get big compressed bales of shavings (meant as bedding for animals) there, tho that will not help when TSHTF and everyone is likely to closed.
Seeing your in town, watch for anyone that does or has a woodworking shop. They will always have shavings too. Drop in and ask if you can have them. Be prepared to get them on days they say to come and they will be happy as well.
Need to tell a reason for wanting them?
Say its mulch to put on top of your garden, to keep keep down weeds. 😉
Pack them into garbage cans to store for later, if you have the space to do so.
Good luck.
A sense of humor is absolutely essential to survival.
Good points OTG, but until I find a good source of saw dust, I think I'll try a different experiment: a worm composting toilet. I will use my Canada tire pail with seat, add worms & lots of ripped up cardboard for their bedding, then "food" and observe what happens... If there's enough worms and they aclimatize to the environment, they should be composting the contents quickly and thus keeping odors down. I'm going to get my worms on Monday.