... Okay, back.

From what I have read, you have a preconception of what urban warfare will be like and how your firearms selection would be best for the situation. I assure you it is not. I would recommend that you do some research into FIBUA/MOUT and CQB. This stuff can range from a few angry neighbours taking frightened pot shots at one another right up to company level units with direct and indirect fire support destroying the terrain. When you're talking local level security you will find that any firearm you can get your hands on will be the one you use, adequate or not. In the big picture, you will find that a .22lr rifle will be adequate to take game, but unless you're a hell of a shot under fire, you're not too likely to be able to make effective use of it in defence of your life. In fact the whole idea of keeping a low profile gets kicked right out the window regardless of the calibre or size without the proper training. In fact .22lr rifles are no more concealable than a rifle firing 5.56N or even .308. I have experience in getting around in a Non Permissive Environment with service rifles and what one could call full urban warfare kit.

The trick is to make the carriage and transport of long guns legal, but discrete. I have walked out the front door to my condo and walked right by people with rifles and shotguns and handguns without so much as a glance cast askew. I have stated this before, but don't think that you have found a way around the rules of war. There is instruction available in regards to urban operations, but it requires dedication to the task at hand.

-S.

MLP,

One important point that you have left out is that unlike where you've been, legally owned center fire will have a capacity of only 5 rounds, may very well be restricted in nature (makes transportation and possibly regular training more of an issue) and ammo will usually be more expensive.

Not that I would rely solely on a .22 rifle as a defence gun, but there are a few advantages:

No mag capacity restrictions so more ammo to cause death by lead poisoning (40 grains at a time...)
You can store and train with 1000s of rounds of .22 for the cost of a few boxes of .223 or .308
You can buy 2 excellent semi autos .22 for the price of a cheap knockoff AR
It is very unlikely that anyone threatening people homes would wear body armour so unless the bad guy wears 2-3 Canada Goose down jackets over a Kevlar motorbike coat, .22 would still penetrate.

The reality is that in Canada, even in the worse WROL situation, it's not going to be AR on AK fights (or similar weapons) or I can't see someone trying to come clear my house with an SMG. The only good thing about the Canadian gun laws is that it prevents gun escalation from a good guy's point of view. By that, I mean that I don't have to worry about getting selective fire guns with hi cap mags and 1000s of rounds to try to stay on top of bad guys' arsenal.

Just my opinion...

MLP,

One important point that you have left out is that unlike where you've been, legally owned center fire will have a capacity of only 5 rounds, may very well be restricted in nature (makes transportation and possibly regular training more of an issue) and ammo will usually be more expensive.

The advantage of those reduced magazine capacities is the huge amount of practice one gets at rapid magazine changes. Other than that, I'm going to abide by the wishes of the moderators and not speak of illegalities, nor counsel anything of the like. Also, as I have said before, 7.62x39B is pretty cheap, as in $250.00-300.00 for approximately 1200 rounds and the rifle is also a bargain, going for between $700.00-1000.00 a unit

Not that I would rely solely on a .22 rifle as a defence gun, but there are a few advantages:

No mag capacity restrictions so more ammo to cause death by lead poisoning (40 grains at a time...)
You can store and train with 1000s of rounds of .22 for the cost of a few boxes of .223 or .308
You can buy 2 excellent semi autos .22 for the price of a cheap knockoff AR

The trouble with the training and practice with a .22 rifle is the manual at arms and terminal ballistics varies from those of a more capable firearm. When you're on the sharp end you don't rise up to the occasion, you slide back to your instinct and muscle memory.

It is very unlikely that anyone threatening people homes would wear body armour so unless the bad guy wears 2-3 Canada Goose down jackets over a Kevlar motorbike coat, .22 would still penetrate.

They may not wear body armour, but they will hide behind car doors, wooden doors, kitchen counters, sofas, garbage cans and so on, just like you will, however, their .223s, 5.56Ns and .308s will be much less likely to be stopped, and even when using cover, the body armour bought us time. In several instances my armour stopped otherwise penetrating rounds that had found their way through my cover and allowed me a chance to move before I became a casualty. Also, the criminal element does have body armour, lots of it. Almost every time a gangster gets busted, they are busted with firearms and body armour.

The reality is that in Canada, even in the worse WROL situation, it's not going to be AR on AK fights (or similar weapons) or I can't see someone trying to come clear my house with an SMG. The only good thing about the Canadian gun laws is that it prevents gun escalation from a good guy's point of view. By that, I mean that I don't have to worry about getting selective fire guns with hi cap mags and 1000s of rounds to try to stay on top of bad guys' arsenal. Just my opinion...

A phrase in retort...

The Balkans 1992-1997, been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

To expand, Yugoslavia had some of the most restrictive firearms laws in the world, no private citizen could posses a rifle that was more than a hunting rifle. Yet when we got there you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting a checkpoint manned by regular Joes armed with AKMs, RPGs and RPKs. You are sadly mistaken to think that escalation will not happen... These were and are good people who had the same desires, dreams and jobs that we have here in Canada, yet that war killed many tens of thousands of people. As I have said before, the badguys are already armed just as you have described them not to be. Also, Those aren't hi-cap mags, they are standard cap mags, we have restricted cap mags.

The trouble is that the criminal element does not subscribe to such legal restrictions. Also, it has been known by numerous agencies that organized criminals are quite well armed and should the veil of society become thin, they will become bold.

Also, I appreciate the discourse, it's always good to discuss these things and share views. 🙂

-S.

. I know you will be able to find examples of cases where it has been lethal, but I wouldn't put much faith into a caliber that can be stopped by winter clothing... That's just me.

I have seen first hand the lethality of a well placed .22 round. However the skill and training of the operator in question was, in a word, phenomenal.

On the other hand, for the scenario you are describing of having something smaller, compact, and concealable for small game hunting, the .22 is a fine choice. I don't see an issue with having several of them around... I just would rather not have to rely on one for my personal safety, or that of my family. If I had to choose between a pistol in 9mm and a .22lr rifle for personal defense... I would go with the pistol any day.

If beggars can't be choosers, I would select the firearm that would provide the best advantage for the situation. If you've got a 9mm pistol and a .22lr rifle, I'd recommend using the .22 rifle or anything beyond 25m.

-S.

Not discounting your warzone experience but I think you're missing an important point. In a SHTF situation, the first attack on my house is less likely to come from the shopping cart armies of Mad Max, and more likely to come from neighbors who have seen me with an "assault rifle" before or after the collapse.

Now I use the word "attack" loosely. Some of them may just be people looking for a protector. Others may be people who've seen Doomsday Preppers and they want whatever supplies they think I've got.

Rallying the neighbors is part of my long term plan, but it's gonna be at a time of my choosing. If I survive the local mob for a few months, then I'll worry about the topless guy in the goalie mask.

All that said, I checked out the 9mm Sub 2000 in store and found it meets my concealability requirements. Gonna buy one this week and probably 2 or 3. But it still won't leave the house until I decide the risk is well well worth it. Until then it's pistols and AR-7s.

Side note here....

Does anyone know of the sub2000 is restricted and can you put a 10 round Glock mag in it legally and go plink at the community gravel pit?

Side note here....

Does anyone know of the sub2000 is restricted and can you put a 10 round Glock mag in it legally and go plink at the community gravel pit?

It's currently un-restricted. Exists in kind of a legal loophole which may or may not be closed in the future.

Not discounting your warzone experience but I think you're missing an important point. In a SHTF situation, the first attack on my house is less likely to come from the shopping cart armies of Mad Max, and more likely to come from neighbors who have seen me with an "assault rifle" before or after the collapse.

Now I use the word "attack" loosely. Some of them may just be people looking for a protector. Others may be people who've seen Doomsday Preppers and they want whatever supplies they think I've got.

Rallying the neighbors is part of my long term plan, but it's gonna be at a time of my choosing. If I survive the local mob for a few months, then I'll worry about the topless guy in the goalie mask.

All that said, I checked out the 9mm Sub 2000 in store and found it meets my concealability requirements. Gonna buy one this week and probably 2 or 3. But it still won't leave the house until I decide the risk is well well worth it. Until then it's pistols and AR-7s.

Much of my experience in this does involve what started as a polite society that became a war zone, some in a few months, or a few hours. Sometimes I got there after the slide into anarchy and other times I was there watching it. I have been there at the beginning a couple of times and it has gone both ways.

-S.

Incidentally I snagged a Russian SKS when I was picking up the Kel-Tec. I like it enough to acquire more of them in the near future, just because they're cheap and rugged rifles. They may have a place in my preps; atleast they don't stick out as much as an AR-15.

Incidentally I snagged a Russian SKS when I was picking up the Kel-Tec. I like it enough to acquire more of them in the near future, just because they're cheap and rugged rifles. They may have a place in my preps; atleast they don't stick out as much as an AR-15.

Did you really just say that?

An SKS will get the same response that an AR will in any situation. I'm sure I'm going to be censured for this, but stop living in a theoretical world when there are quite a few of us on here who have had to swing the iron in everything from an open AO/SOAs (Area of Operations/Special Operations Area)to a NPE AO (Non Permissive Environment Area of Operations) who can counsel you on real life. Don't believe me? Walk down the street with an SKS under your arm and see how quickly the CPS Tac-Team shows up. A firearms call is a firearms call and they'll treat you walking down the street with an SKS just like they'd treat a call about you with an AR. Remember, the people who just called ol' Nick on yer are the same ones who'll see you sashaying down the street with the rifle in a big picture SHTF situation. I've literally walked down packed city streets with my issue weapon (L119 with a 10.3"bbl), five spare primary mags, comms, service pistol (L106A1), two spare secondary mags, an Urban Dart, a Hissatsu Folder, 2l of H2O and LVL IV SA/MS Body Armour and the only reason I stood out was that I was a white guy surrounded by Pashtu. Nobody realized I was thus equipped.

You guys are all doing well to purchase firearms as part of your preps (for hunting I presume), but please, for cryin' out loud, do not think that you're finding some secret way around the rules of the battle space by picking up a rifle that doesn't look like this or appeals to that. Graveyards are packed with guys who tried to cheat at something that doesn't really have contrived rules, just evolved ones.

Education and training will be what changes the balance in your favour, not this bang-stick or that smoke-pole. Learn it, live it, love it.

-S.

Side note here....

Does anyone know of the sub2000 is restricted and can you put a 10 round Glock mag in it legally and go plink at the community gravel pit?

Under current Canadian Criminal Code the use of a Canada legal pistol magazine that fits into a rifle is perfectly legal.

-S.

the 10/22 takedown is just as reliable and accurate as its standard model counterpart. Also... not sure what screws are being talked about... mine does not have any screws, just a just of a button, a twist, and viola... compact plinker

The 10/22 takedown breaks down to a piece that's 18" and one that's 20" (and a smidge). If you take a regular model, there is a screw just forward of the trigger and another attached to a band near the end of the stock, helping to hold the barrel. Remove those, and you have a piece 24" and about 18". So for the difference in price, you're saving 4" in a range day/pack scenario. Not as fast to put together, but not time consuming or difficult, either, and I would assume that the rifle was staying assembled in the home environment.
The price differences here are pretty significant: $350-425 for the takedown, $200-350 for standard models (depending on finishes) . If I had it to do again, I'd skip the cost of the takedown model and pick up almost a second firearm for the savings, because the packable size just isn't all that significant of a savings for $150 to me.

I was thinking about this post again and a shotgun occurred to me.
Slugs or split slugs (depending on legality in your area) work well out to 50-80 yards even in brush and light cover, buckshot can do the same, and #4 and #2 bird slugs are effective as well, and with proper chokes you can figure out what's best for the 5-20 yard range, with some leeway not provided for by single-projectile firearms. A sleeve of marked rounds can allow you to take advantage of any legal game in season without requiring multiple guns and without undershooting larger small game (rabbit) or destroying and ruining smaller game (dove).

As with any firearm, with the possible exception of .22, you'll have to be very aware of occupants both inside your home and in neighboring buildings with a shotgun as a self-defense tool. It doesn't allow me to put rounds on target without a slug if a dog already has an ankle or wrist. I have to be aware of some slugs traveling through walls. Still, if you know where family is, shot can be had that won't go through drywall+an exterior wall, and has real advantages in darkness and high-stress encounters. Safety/Glazer rounds have pros and cons, for the 9mm especially.

Incidentally I snagged a Russian SKS when I was picking up the Kel-Tec. I like it enough to acquire more of them in the near future, just because they're cheap and rugged rifles. They may have a place in my preps; atleast they don't stick out as much as an AR-15.

Did you really just say that?

An SKS will get the same response that an AR will in any situation. I'm sure I'm going to be censured for this, but stop living in a theoretical world when there are quite a few of us on here who have had to swing the iron in everything from an open AO/SOAs (Area of Operations/Special Operations Area)to a NPE AO (Non Permissive Environment Area of Operations) who can counsel you on real life. Don't believe me? Walk down the street with an SKS under your arm and see how quickly the CPS Tac-Team shows up. A firearms call is a firearms call and they'll treat you walking down the street with an SKS just like they'd treat a call about you with an AR. Remember, the people who just called ol' Nick on yer are the same ones who'll see you sashaying down the street with the rifle in a big picture SHTF situation. I've literally walked down packed city streets with my issue weapon (L119 with a 10.3"bbl), five spare primary mags, comms, service pistol (L106A1), two spare secondary mags, an Urban Dart, a Hissatsu Folder, 2l of H2O and LVL IV SA/MS Body Armour and the only reason I stood out was that I was a white guy surrounded by Pashtu. Nobody realized I was thus equipped.

You guys are all doing well to purchase firearms as part of your preps (for hunting I presume), but please, for cryin' out loud, do not think that you're finding some secret way around the rules of the battle space by picking up a rifle that doesn't look like this or appeals to that. Graveyards are packed with guys who tried to cheat at something that doesn't really have contrived rules, just evolved ones.

Education and training will be what changes the balance in your favour, not this bang-stick or that smoke-pole. Learn it, live it, love it.

-S.

Dude...chill already. I spent a lot of text saying that any rifle would draw unwanted attention in a SHTF situation, and now that I relent slightly and buy an SKS, you're practically screaming that I was right the first time.

And quit throwing your military experience in my face. Your ADVICE is welcome, but stop acting like you know the future. Whatever warzone you were deployed to, it wasn't Canada. People here have an irrational, almost religious fear of black rifles. They WILL react more strongly to an AR-15; there's no point in denying it.

All that said, carrying a rifle at all would still be a last resort. I'm willing to bet when you were deployed, you didn't waste bullets on some filthy beggar with a shopping cart. The guy with the gun always caught your eye first.

😐

You're right. I have been a prat about this, just please stop to think about what I have said in the past about this sort of thing.

You have made your choices and I'm glad you did purchase a firearm, but I also suggest you get training and education with respect to use and deportment. I did not mean to offend, however, I did come across far too strong in this.

And you're right, the guy with the gun caught our attention first, but it didn't matter if it was an old beat up Enfield from WWI or a new RPK just brought in from Iran. Then while somebody watched him, the rest of us would take a quick look around in case he was a distraction. One thing I would like to pass on, never fixate, that only leads to bigger problems. You see that guy with the shopping cart might be the real threat. 😉

Again, I apologize.

-S.

the 10/22 takedown is just as reliable and accurate as its standard model counterpart. Also... not sure what screws are being talked about... mine does not have any screws, just a just of a button, a twist, and viola... compact plinker

The 10/22 takedown breaks down to a piece that's 18" and one that's 20" (and a smidge). If you take a regular model, there is a screw just forward of the trigger and another attached to a band near the end of the stock, helping to hold the barrel. Remove those, and you have a piece 24" and about 18". So for the difference in price, you're saving 4" in a range day/pack scenario. Not as fast to put together, but not time consuming or difficult, either, and I would assume that the rifle was staying assembled in the home environment.
The price differences here are pretty significant: $350-425 for the takedown, $200-350 for standard models (depending on finishes) . If I had it to do again, I'd skip the cost of the takedown model and pick up almost a second firearm for the savings, because the packable size just isn't all that significant of a savings for $150 to me.

I've been looking at a .22lr for gopher control and have looked at a number of them, I have heard that the Ruger 10/22 is the standard, and I've recently seen that Rock River has a 10/22 that they (I understand) make under license, anybody had any experience with these? Remington is also making a rather good semi-auto (according to reviews) called the 597. However I haven't found a take down version of that anywhere.

I was thinking about this post again and a shotgun occurred to me.
Slugs or split slugs (depending on legality in your area) work well out to 50-80 yards even in brush and light cover, buckshot can do the same, and #4 and #2 bird slugs are effective as well, and with proper chokes you can figure out what's best for the 5-20 yard range, with some leeway not provided for by single-projectile firearms. A sleeve of marked rounds can allow you to take advantage of any legal game in season without requiring multiple guns and without undershooting larger small game (rabbit) or destroying and ruining smaller game (dove).

This is useful information for me. All of my experience with shotguns is in The Army. We used to put the special ammo in a little bandoleer of sorts with a letter on the base of the brass to readily identify it when prepping for whatever it was we were going to do, is this kind of the same idea?

As with any firearm, with the possible exception of .22, you'll have to be very aware of occupants both inside your home and in neighboring buildings with a shotgun as a self-defense tool. It doesn't allow me to put rounds on target without a slug if a dog already has an ankle or wrist. I have to be aware of some slugs traveling through walls. Still, if you know where family is, shot can be had that won't go through drywall+an exterior wall, and has real advantages in darkness and high-stress encounters. Safety/Glazer rounds have pros and cons, for the 9mm especially.

The over penetration of shotgun rounds is a fact, even the heavier birdshot. Sounding like the devil's advocate, any shot that won't go through several interior walls (and possibly an exterior wall) was found to generally not be effective at stopping people.

There is a technique to use your knowledge of the shotgun pattern to "quarter" the shot cloud to "miss" the non-threat target in a close proximity situation as you describe, but it takes practice and a knowledge of the rounds you are using. Quite appropriately, the folks who are into shot sports (skeet, trap, game taking) tend to be pretty good at this sort of thing. This next part is best done with shotguns with bolt breaches. It's called a load swap where you pop out the old (shot) round to put in the new (slug) round to make that precise shot. Done right it is a pretty effective tool if you don't have a quartering shot or there are too many non-threats behind the X-ray. It is a good skill to have as it will allow you to improve your port loading technique as well.

Glazer/Impact Frangible rounds have had mixed reviews from the agencies that have tested them, the pros and cons you mentioned. They are, in my opinion, a bit of a gimmick. Don't get me wrong, I won't stand in front of them, but I also won't stand behind them if I can help it.

-S.