- Russia is sending 4th Aid convoy to east Ukraine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5Im52IGnbc
Poroshenko claims that the trucks are hauling in weapons and smuggling out dead Russian soldiers and technology.

- Graham Philips(independent US Reporter): reports Ukraine Army doesn't recover their dead https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFe5KqR5kwE

- RT News: shows many unmarked graves throughout the east. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkAua6hK3jI
This also shows that the eastern folks bury them all with dignity. It should speak volumes as to their maintaining compassion during such hard times.

- Anti-Maidan(pro-Russian stuff made it thru) Kiev is using radioactive equipment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwNafwQO3bQ
they show a tank is radio active and claim it must have come from the a batch of decommissioned machines from Chernobyl region. I guess they could rig a Geiger-counter to lie as a propaganda tool.. unlikely :ugeek:

- Press TV: UN claims 260,000 displaced by the war but admit it could be far higher https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgu4bTzBMZw

- check out Ukraine's military PC software for strategic deployment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUmWXOQFr6g

I'd say that the above reactions are those that a bankrupt country would have to consider. Various analysts figure Ukraine would need over $50 billion dollars to get back on it's feet and the few millions don't even cover interest on their debts. The sad thing is that the longer this war continues, the worse their crisis gets. The west can't afford to lose the assets of the east, yet the damage the east has sustained physically and mentally is really beyond repair. The chance of keeping them as a part of Ukraine is lost unless they finally just beat them into total submission and this Russia won't allow. Thus Ukraine becomes the battleground between NATO and Russia. If the west were to allow the east to return to Russia, the EU would likely lose interest as the gas is their main point of interest.

I wonder why the EU don't make an agreement the east that they would pay them also for their gas so both regions could start to rebuild. If Russia then intervened with such an agreement , then NATO would finally have a conflict where they were in the right. It's obvious that the west wants the east's resources without any compensation being given to the east. Yet they continue to lose by not considering the sharing that they should have at the onset. Now this has become a breakaway region and the west cannot accept that option either.

Can you remember the movie "Enemy at the Gate"? In the movie, the Russian troops were demoralized and therefore unmotivated. They did not believe in their leaders enough to stand and fight for their country. The people were threatened by both the enemy and their own countrymen...they were to charge blindly at the advancing enemy or be shot by your own people if you attempted to retreat. Die bravely or die as a coward! Living that day would be like winning lottery!

This is the same mental approach that Ukraine government seems to now use on many of their soldiers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vDxx_AnsHk

- If you were a soldier that was commanded to attack your own troops simply because they challenged stupid orders given them, would you want to follow these stupid orders in turn?
- Would you not then start doubting the whole conflict and all that you were told?
- When your enemy seems to show compassion while your side shows no mercy, would you not then start to wonder who were really the good guys in this?
- And once you realized that the enemy wasn't really the bad guys, could you continue to still fight them?
- Would not each enemy kill thereafter then reduce your own humanity until you were but a shell of your former self?

"Our need to Believe"!

So your government must convince you that "you fight what is right"!

Many documentaries have been made showing that soldiers fight much better when they believe in their cause. Everyone likes to let off a little steam now and then but the chaos of war should scare most sane persons into opting for peace instead. If you have followed this conflict from it's beginning, you have then witnessed the evolution of the people as they became more violent over time.

It was fine when you were cheering on your soldiers as they went forward to fight in your name. But when their numbers grew thin, it was now your turn to join the front lines.

Basic training started immediately to tear away that old persona and build you a new one. They drilled you from morning to night with exercise and you became fit, both physically and mentally. You got so you enjoyed showing the new recruits that your unit was in better shape as you yelled loud the cadence calls as you ran past them. You even noticed that you were pretty good at this stuff compared to many that competed with on a daily basis. And it is at about this point that basic training ends.

But there is no time for any further training as the need for reinforcements is high. You are told that our side has the enemy on the run. We have them outgunned, cornered and almost beaten. Russia is afraid of NATO and hiding. With spirits high, you leave for the front knowing this new job puts food on the table for your family and they'll still be fed should you maybe die.

Then you get to the front and learn the real truth....

Now the bigger nations do all this in a bigger way.... they have many more tricks in their bag. The brain washing goes far deeper and the hype to selling them the spiel is far more intoxicating. When their surrounded by this hype 24/7, when "kickass" is mentioned in almost every exhale and their fears simply subside by the mere mention of the Lord's name as they replay some hymn silently in their head like this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MtdyRDy4fU
Some minister said the Lord is with them and they believe him without further question.... (like why wouldn't God just smite them himself so they won't break the "Thou shall not kill" rule).

And when they get to the front lines and see the real truth... they just yell the spiel they were taught louder and believe truly believe it over what even their eyes now contradict...that's how real brainwashing should work!

So one of the links that I'd read made a comment that has rattled around in my brain since. It mentioned that the US has benefited throughout each world war whereas no other country in the world can also profess this success. The main reason is that the US economy grew each time and their infrastructure remained pretty much untouched during each as it was far from the front lines.

The US seems to screw up pretty much every country it tries to help and this makes them appear that they don't learn from their past mistakes. The US could have solved much of Ukraine's economic problems by paying them enough to legitimately start drilling while even providing some compensation those in the east for those resources? And Russia would have had little power to stop this progression without coming off as the bad guy. This escalation to war would likely have been avoided unless Russian aggression paved the road to battle instead. The US has the intelligence to build the most sophisticated war machines yet doesn't seem to have the intellect to see these other options? Unlikely!

Therefore they are playing a different game than we thought and thus the US could be really winning at their every move. We can't really tell as we don't know the rules to this game. The bad part to this theory is that it then starts to trip into the regions of greater speculation and then becomes ignored by the majority as some simply proclaim these as "conspiracy theories". Therefore answers to this and other such questions never gets resolved due to individual inner fears of being stereotyped as "radical" (any dirty word used by weaker minds).

The question was: How can the US have the intelligence to build the most sophisticated war machines yet doesn't seem to have the intellect to see these other options? Most likely because that wasn't their main goal.....

But how did you fair remaining on the path once I mentioned "conspiracy theory"? I bet walls came up immediately because that is how our society has trained us to respond when being accused of asking a non-patriotic question. The mental block can be so severe that one loses their train of thought as they subconsciously block even the memory of the question from their mind. I only mention this mental barrier as I found I too was often affected in this way when someone first mentioned the words "conspiracy theories".

Meanwhile the above questions still remain unanswered. This present path we have been put on will likely force Russia to protect their immediate neighbors from possible genocide as they are closely tied to Russia in so many ways. Russia will then be painted as being a conquering nation that it really isn't so. The fact that they are winning over the hearts of those in former parts of Russia is immaterial. Even this present situation now weakens Russia's resources and economy. While they now support 260, 000 refugees (and Ukraine doesn't), the trade sanctions will break ties to the European neighbors and any new trade will have to come from afar. The longer the supply routes, the more susceptible they will be to disruption if war comes. And preventing Russian fuel going to China will also reduce China's ability to provide aid as fuel sources are their weakest point. The lack of the Ukrainian bread basket's harvest this year will strongly affect Russians food supplies and this aspect is likely Russia's weakest resource. Russia may make light of it, but this resource has always been there throughout their history.

This is how the US crippled Iraq. They destroyed their infrastructure first. Before they even attacked, the US had reduced Iraq's electrical power to 30% of normal. To perform this same tactic on Russian infrastructure requires far more cooperation by many nations to have the proper effect. And when Russia sees the weakening of their resources, they will have to react before the gauntlet is fully closed. And one can see the present moves being played lately work to even better confirm this is likely NATO's final goal.

But of course this aspect is just a coincidence and would just be considered a "conspiracy theory" of the EU, UN and NATO, right? Because that would mean that war is the final outcome and we still proclaim that we want peace.

One must remember now that most of the links that I have to work with are pro Ukrainian links. There is little pro-Russian links other than RT and Press TV now and their perspectives seem to be much more subtle when reporting any event. Note the finger pointing has been totally banned by their side only and often only vague suggestion is used these days.

- CNN: haven't seen much from CNN for awhile regarding this conflict. They report that both sides deny shelling the school. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2eviPwjAuU
Note that they forget to mention that the battle is out at the airport. The rebels are trying to retake the airport as they have been doing since May. This is because the Ukraine army has been shelling the town from it and has to hold it anyways. The openness of an airport allows the Ukraine army to see advancements along ways off and this makes it easier to defend. This is also why the battle remains in the Donetsk region. Note how there is no mention that the Ukraine army could be the culprits. The school hit is indeed out toward the airport, but still nowhere close to being a part of the area under assault by the rebels. It would be a target though of the Ukraine army as the rebels advance toward them. Again, why would the rebels shell their own people and why would they even allow their kids to go to school if they had deemed this region a threat?

- Ukraine News: the Ukraine army prepares their other borders against Russian invasion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ol0BrcBS59E

- RT News: NATO proclaims that Russia maintains the ability to destabilize Ukraine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpIGSDj3TrI
You do see where this rhetoric is going by now? Seems our side is preparing for all out war. There are presently many other such videos with this same message .

- Press TV: the start of this video shows Ukrainian army testing their new bullet proof vehicles given to them by the UN. (seems a confidence builder is needed for the soldiers). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g7FpVaj3S4
The Ukraine army has reinforced the Dunetsk airport showing they do not plan to retreat from this region but instead will likely use this position to spearhead their attack as it somewhat divides the eastern region.

- pro-Russian video showing the airport region and English text stating the shooting is Ukrainian army is presently firing GRAD missiles at another nearby town. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evxwNxX6Rt8
They too mention the Ukraine army must be taking heavy casualties to remain there still.

- another video from the same author. Seems he has access to pro Ukrainian video material https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RXAtX7E8AA

The above video is a prime example of how mankind will unite against a common enemy. Hard not to note that the common enemy is just a "Common Joe". The guy was merely sitting at a bench. There is no mention of reason for their actions against him but I'm betting that he had a Russian accent that bought him their scorn. The crowd isn't causing injury to their persons as yet, but neither are they afraid of prosecution for their actions. This is prejudice in raw form and note the crowd no longer hides behind masks and the darkness of night anymore as they commit such acts either.

The influence that our social media has upon us is stronger than most of us can imagine. While you still maintain your own thoughts, the majority of the public will form opinions from this news they hear daily. And in turn, the influence of the majority (from those you associate with daily) has it's toll upon you and most tend to finally accept that if the majority agrees, you must then be wrong and you too now become a member of the majority. But the brainwashing must be very intoxicating to penetrate beyond the moral standards that were written from youth, to achieve the levels of hatred that the common people of the west now portray daily.

Hatred is a dangerous wound to bear... If left to fester, it will spread until it occupies all your thoughts and at this stage, there is no known cure! (another new quote by Knuckle) 😎

- Watch the procedure to the firing of this artillery https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v25J3mgCyh0

Do you see how much the gun is knocked off it's present settings when it is fired? By using the principles of basic trigonometry, the further the target is away, the greater affect even a minor deviation would have upon the accuracy of your next shot in relation to that of your last one. Therefore the potential for hitting a non related target is far greater than ever hitting that of which you would hope to. To have spotters call in target adjustments would be of little consequence unless they anchored the gun properly. This inaccuracy may even better explain the accidental school killings.

Continued from Rifle Selection thread

The thing I do when I read such as this is try to imagine how the person who is making such a random killing device justifies their actions mentally while doing the dirty deed. I imagine the story that they'd have to concoct to sleep at night would have to be a doozy to silence the demons that would haunt them when they later heard a child died from their creation.

I compare even the simple act of making such as these exploding rounds still equivalent to those soldiers firing of an artillery shell into a guesstimated distance and knowing that it could as easily hit innocent civilians too.

Are you capable of following such orders today? If not, shouldn't you have then considered that before joining artillery division? Are your hands cleaner when you say you were just following orders? When I was in the military, I was young and dumb! No wonder our leaders want the young and gullible to fight their battles. Would you other ex-military here be so willing to follow such orders today? If I am to kill another human, I'd like to think I had justification for doing so and therefore feel I would have to know the individual truly deserved to die. I know I had more faith in my leaders back then. With age it seems come skepticism and a better understanding of moral conscience.

I doubt that many would even want to consider the above questions as they touch upon the taboo thoughts that we often try hard to not ask ourselves. They lead into areas that might create doubts as to one's own potential of being considered a coward in others eyes instead of being brave. But that aspect is really just illusion. Is it not better to have worked out your stand on such issues in advance? You might avoid finding yourself in such a predicament if you had just considered such questions earlier.

I know that some may have concluded that this Knuckle character sides with Putin because he continually show the pro Russian side. I myself figure that all of you are being bombarded with our daily propaganda for Ukraine side so I feel it best to try and show the opposite side instead and what is likely closer to the real truth anyways. But to show I'm not totally biased, I will also try now to show another aspect that I haven't touch much on...

A Ukraine Draftee

Let's try to imagine we are one of those Ukrainian people who have been drafted. Or maybe one of those who need to just put food on their family table during a time of a failed economy and so you even volunteer. Not all your people believe that those in the east deserve what their getting and maybe some even sympathize with their opponent's predicament. Yet they are now going to the front lines with you to kill other Ukrainian's they don't even dislike ... but they have no other options left either.

Flash forward to where they are being told to simply stay in their tanks and APC's and shoot all persons they see as they are all enemies who will otherwise report your position and get you and your fellow countrymen killed.

These are your options:

1. You obey and blame your superiors. You will likely be ridden with guilt for the remainder of your life for killing people who did nothing to deserve death. Since you are now evil, you might as well try out the rape and torture aspects as your going to some version of hell anyways. This future sucks!

2. You discuss it with others and agree that you'll surrender and be taken prisoner as they'll treat you well and you won't have to kill.
Hopefully they won't torture and kill you instead! This is likely a better option than desertion anyways....

3. You just shoot over their heads but finally someone figures they'd best kill you first and you will then die!

If you had thought this out first, you wouldn't be in this predicament. You must know yourself first to avoid such a bad set of options. You might still be in a bad way, but hopefully at least not one that left you screwed from every angle as many of the draftees likely were...

It's easy for me at least to see why so many simply surrendered their weapons to their enemy .... because they were at least the lesser of the evils. Their side was wrong in opting for what was obviously genocide tactics. Does this make them a coward or a traitor? I think that makes them BRAVER than most as they could have easily died too, but at least they were no longer "sheeple" and maintained a clear conscience, especially considering the options given them.

I also think this explains how the rebels acquired so many operational pieces of Ukraine equipment and how they had so many prisoners to trade during the exchanges. I'm sure that the US would have produced far better proof of Russian equipment crossing the borders as they have shown technology to detect heat signatures even in the blackest of nights from overhead satellites and drones. These tactics worked so well and yet the rebels exchanged this wise leadership for their now present leaders who threaten to match action for action with those of the west. This will lose them the sympathies and vengeance will become commonplace far more often. Soon we will see mass graves in the west and those who were in the right will soon be harder to recognize as still being so...

The RadioActive Tanks story

Do you believe this one to be true?

- If you were in charge of the Ukraine army and you had some decommissioned tanks such as these, who you use them when you were in desperate need of more artillery? Of course you would or you wouldn't remain in charge long otherwise...
- Would you tell those who went to get them? No, because who would drive a radioactive tank and die a slow painful death from being in it?
- Would you care if they fell into enemy hands? No, of course not, because it could then kill many who even stood near it.too, a win win situation for sure!

I don't know if this is a true story but it is a likely one if they did have such equipment laying around!

Its on youtube...so it must be true.

Its on youtube...so it must be true.

Point taken as one could fake the story if they wished to by simply placing even radioactive medical waste ( or other such crap as Chernobyl isn't so far away) near the tank. But then many believe that the UN and NATO are there for peaceful reasons when they haven't had a track record for doing any such thing either. Yet they proclaim it so it must be true!

I would be far more interested in knowing why Canada wishes to enter into a conflict where there is even a suggestion of us possibly siding neo-Fascists in any way. It's been pretty hard to look past all that evidence showing this indeed is fact and yet we still sympathize with them in our media... I always marvel at how we seem to forget to ask questions regarding this aspect before we decide to jump in.

Are UN Members Doubting Events?

- BBC News: OSCE observers have found graves where those dead were raped or tortured and some even had organs removed. http://www.bbc.co.uk/monitoring/russian-tv-uses-crash-pictures-in-mass-grave-report
Does this means that they are killing persons to sell their organs? Various reports have totaled the body count now up as high as 400.

- Rt News: so much conflict came from the above that RT investigated further https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAHAjoUtCJ0
They also state the rebels now hold the Donetsk airport

- RT News: speak of the devil, seems them right wing neo-Nazi's are peeved because Ukraine ousted their MP https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YndwfLP8904
I doubt this will be a good thing for Kiev's already unstable situation yet they had to reign them in as these Nazi's are being blamed for much of the rapes and torture being committed by the west.

Now the west is also claiming that these atrocities were committed by the rebels while they canned the right wing MP. They can't outright accuse the neo-Nazi's of such a crime without then admitting that their side committed the crime, so they must try to convince their people that the rebels did it to themselves.

- RT News: Ex VP of OSCE states what many should agree with, that Russia feels threatened by UN and NATO being so close to their borders much as the US did when Russia built a base in Cuba. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZiv8bRTBds
Germans are now sympathizing with Russia. Spain is showing the same and France has ignored sanctions.

- a Spanish music video in support of the Ukraine rebels https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptDSJqMFVcE

- RT News: Switzerland states EU countries chose destruction tactics for Ukraine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ4VUSKjaJ0
If you wish to translate this, click the bottom right corner tab marked "CC" and translate to Russian first and then click the translate Captions option and scroll to English. This will only provide a rough translation but you can see that he does mention Canada in his speech too and I don't think it was a kind mention either.

Are UN Members Doubting Events?

- BBC News: OSCE observers have found graves where those dead were raped or tortured and some even had organs removed. http://www.bbc.co.uk/monitoring/russian-tv-uses-crash-pictures-in-mass-grave-report
Does this means that they are killing persons to sell their organs? Various reports have totaled the body count now up as high as 400.

- Rt News: so much conflict came from the above that RT investigated further https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAHAjoUtCJ0
They also state the rebels now hold the Donetsk airport

This is another sample of rusiian press propaganda works. From the BBC article:

<<The website of Russian TV channel REN TV has been using images of victims of the MH17 Malaysian airline disaster to illustrate reports about the alleged discovery of "mass graves" in east Ukraine. ...

An OSCE report on 24 September about the graves mentioned by the Russian media said that two of them contained two bodies apiece. It said that at another site there was a mound resembling a grave marked by a plaque bearing the names or initials of five individuals and suggesting they had been killed on 27 August. >>

and then "RT investigated further" they found that the 400 mass killed were actually 310 at the morgue and 9 from the actual graves. Of the 9, 5 were "most likely " rebels as per the RT reporter. Of course they present it like their investigation proves the "mass killing". And they are right if you think that war is nothing else but a mass killing but not in the way they put it.

Anyways, I managed to have a good laugh out of their so called investigations as it reminded me of an older soviet joke:

Question at Radio Yerevan:
“Is it true that in Moscow, Mercedes cars are being given to citizens?”

The Armenian Radio answers: “Yes, but it is not Moscow but Leningrad, not Mercedes but Ladas, and not given to but stolen from.”

So then the OSCE observers are obviously part of this Russian propaganda? (and I'm using stuff from our own side, the BBC). I included these above articles especially so that others would read thru them and draw their own conclusions as such controversy is all too obvious. There is alot of finger pointing going on regarding all these deaths but the majority of us know the the west is truly responsible. The REAL issue is that there is 400 or so unidentified dead civilians laying around east Ukraine morgues. Some with organs missing, others who were obviously tortured. Then bureaucrats come along and try to make light of the issue (as you too are now doing) to take attention off this total by arguing over what was where. The mass graves indeed had very few persons as reported by RT. The numbers remain the same though regarding the unnamed dead. This is due to the acts of the west regarding those of the east.

This same methodology is exactly how much of our news today is being presented to downplay such atrocities that occur in east Ukraine today. Other countries news agencies won't portray events using such tactics and therefore their people are awakened by such atrocities as they should be. But instead our social media uses such tactics to make light of them instead. Before you disagree though, reflect how you presently view the killings in Odessa ... got your defense ready for your perspective?

So lets now replay this event... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4dJRnI-X8Q
here's a far more graphic reminder https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZQZ7MspzB8

Our media washed their hands clean of this event as if it never happened. And since we have other things on our mind, we forget to challenge such things as they paint a picture of Poroshenko the just. I thought prom was even coming around to challenging all this damning evidence that pops up daily. The lies are so hard to believe and yet you somehow still swallow them all. The Russian must have a massive budget to reenact all these events to use as daily propaganda. Hollywood should learn how they could put such real looking events together in all the footage I present daily....

- you get to watch how much Ukrainian soldiers are loved by civilians in the east https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0md8nkkEBso

- seems the DNR army (ya know, the rebels) claim that 2 Ukraine battalions swapped sides today to instead fight for the DNR. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE1HCkErjcE
While doing so, they claim to have killed several dozen pro-Kiev soldiers and captured a criminal wanted by Interpol since 94. Now I'd like to wait to see what the Ukraine side states about this but I doubt they would want to admit that something like this even happened.

- leader of Kazakhstan meets with former leader of Ukraine to discuss sending aid to Ukraine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yG_6mei7wA
This is obviously an arrangement made by Russia to create further division in Ukraine as things become more tense. If other countries start again to recognize the former president, they are then denying the coup-de-tat of February and also siding with Russia. Another sly move being played by Russia.

- well here's Poroshenko wanting to make English the 2nd language of Ukraine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J-dCPeom30
I was challenged not long ago regarding the ban of Russian as a national language. This video is west Ukraine's admission that Ukraine is now the only official language presently accepted. In a country where 1/3 claim Russian is their mother tongue, this is just another way to create more division.

- here's some Russian propaganda to get you going... and how much of this is do you think is True??? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOIUg8QLyEU

It does seem that our news is never boring any more!

It seems that prom has made further allegations as to my loyalties and beliefs in the "Feel Good" thread. This in turn has given me the motive to respond to his comments by approaching the subject of prejudices. He has also tried to tag me with the title of racist because I posted a YouTube video of a fellow dressed as a Jewish priest making fun of Israel's reasoning for the attacks on the Gaza Strip. It was rather critical of their religious hypocrisy over killing and I too believe that no one can proclaim they are killing in the name of any god .... just because if God wanted them dead, I'm sure he could do it without your help!

I figure too that my many posts have by now given all the ample opportunity to formulate my stand on most issues. And since this thread covers many aspects of human nature, I will now use it to touch upon prejudice.

Are You Prejudiced?

I'm sure the majority of us would immediately answer NO to this question. Of course we all believe that we are well rounded in our thinking and therefore not susceptible to such things. That is simply false because to take one side on any given argument requires some form of prejudice towards the other side of said argument. Enough said on that!

But prejudice is also the tool used to separate mankind into smaller groups. It is usually the preferred tool of people who wish to divide and rule others. Unity is often achieved by division. Division is often achieved by working on prejudice. Prejudice is often achieved by capitalizing on some defining trait of individuals and labeling it as a stereotypical aspect of those with that given trait.

I likely stereotyped my belief that most of Jewish decent tend to believe in a God when I posted that YouTube video . Thus they would have to be hypocrites if they condone the killing of others over their religious beliefs. I bet in reality that those who promote the killing of others likely have less belief in a god or they would see this contradiction.....

But prom promoted his own beliefs too in the following clips

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEgRit8dxDY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN3z3eSVG7A

These are clips of President Reagan telling jokes of Russian decent. Yet the interpretation of the purpose of the joke is being twisted to the means of supporting democracy over socialism. Since we all grew up in a democratic society where we were continually told how much better it is over socialism, we are further justified when hearing these jokes. Yet those who created these jokes didn't do so for our benefit, but theirs. They criticize those flaws which they see daily in their society and do so in a humorous fashion. We too often criticize our own government and it's politicians. Do the Russians use this as propaganda against us in turn too? Probably so!

Yet Russia's socialism today seems to be becoming far more relaxed and open while our own democratic society is becoming far more censored and closed. We know this to be true as our government defends their new laws removing our rights and freedoms while proclaiming this is being done to protect us from the hidden terrorist enemy that lurks everywhere. And we see it in our airports, internet, borders and courtrooms. We know that this line between socialism and democracy has been blurred because past definitions no longer work anymore. Russia's Stalin dictatorship no longer exists any more than Kennedy's democracy does either.

The use of old propaganda such as those shown by prom do nothing for changing other's view to an honest perspective of today's issues. They only reinforce old prejudices that likely weren't even justified back then. And we should likely be less worried of what occurs in other countries and more worried as to what is going wrong with our own!

- Good Morning Ukraine: Life seems to still be good for many in the west https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuzUdzRTUtM
Gee, I wonder if this is western Ukraine propaganda? Maybe everyone wears their countries flag every day here as a ritual... but a band singing that they know their destiny is to build a new future, folks sharing literature and food, puppy petting, wow, don't you want that too? It's like these folks are totally unaware that their neighbours and hungry and homeless in the east...

- seems Spanish students don't side with Ukraine students as they carry a Ukraine flag onto Madrid's campus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzzBSRwtHoI

- Ukraine Today: Russian speaking Ukrainian students side with Kiev https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YYJC2E8yYY
Smell like propaganda? There is alot of this put out by this news agency daily. They are constantly trying to convince the public that their cause is right and just. Do you note that there is no mention of the news channels form the east? Those stations were targeted long ago. If you were a Russian speaking student, it is likely they are of Russian decent too. Do you not think that they are therefore under constant scrutiny by others and so must agree just to remain safe. I'm betting such things were commonplace amongst the Jewish students in Germany during WWII too.

Many have likely heard mention now and then that the German public is not siding with their government regarding EU involvement in Ukraine. They have their own news programs which side the rebels and the government allows it's presence. They also are the loudest protestors against fascism today. Seems they don't want a repeat of their past occupation of Hitler's day. Here is their latest anti-propaganda done in a satire https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYHwM59EfOA

- RT News: meanwhile the right sector (neo-Nazi's) are quietly crashing some rally held by Kiev government. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bihMpLOVWDI

- heres some unconfirmed footage supposedly out of Ukrainian army held Mariupol. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1G35AqBcZHo
It shows a guy performing inspection of the local vehicles and firing his weapon for effect. He appears to take what is likely a bribe and kicks another after pocketing the handover. It's actions from individuals such as this that will convert those who were supporting the Ukraine military to eventually convert to the rebels side instead. You then lose the locals support and then wonder why the enemy knows your every move....

5 Minutes to Midnight

- RT News: This is the best interview regarding this Ukraine standoff and the superpowers influence yet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VgIc2eJbIU
This guest speaker, Stephen Cohen (well known American scholar of Russian studies, Princeton University), explains much as to both sides intentions and their given actions. It is a soft spoken debate discussing past, present and future effects from given actions and their possible effects ahead.

If you truly wish to have some insight to this conflict, I'd suggest you at least watch this one fully.

The honesty and sincerity shown during Stephen Cohen's explanation shows alot of thought and past debate to reach these well thought out conclusions. He mentions studying with famous past advisers to the US and how alot of this was initially debated as far back as 1990 before NATO started to expand in Europe.

The handing over of the missile defense to NATO had it's own objective too. The encroachment of EU countries to surround Russia takes away Russia's advantage of nuclear launch capabilities as they could stop the launches while still above Russia. Thus the "mutual destruction" aspect that kept the peace during the cold war will no longer be a threat to Europe. This offsets a balance that has worked up til now and gives NATO a one sided advantage.

Therefore to allow this last encroachment upon Russia has many more implications that the public is being told. While NATO was designed to bring peace, it is really doing the opposite. NATO expansion is dividing and setting the stage for a world war 3. Stephen Cohen even explains why this newly issued 4,000 man fast reaction force is even a threat as it allows the men and equipment required to set up and defend these last pieces of this planned missile defense puzzle.

Thus the title of this post. We can still stop it but we are so close to that point of no return.... even now Russia could be planning drastic measures to react before this trap closes upon them. And China and India know too that NATO's sights would next fix upon them if they don't work together....

And at the end of this video, he mentions all the censorship that I continually try to tell you all is there. I see it daily! He and other professors and scholars he mentions have been banned from expressing their points of view as it doesn't fit with the US agenda. Never before has our media been so one sided about any event. This is why we likely won't step back from the precipice we are presently walking along.

I often marvel at how Putin seems to avoid traps set before him. How can he stop this one? And then that inner voice that reminds me even the Bible states that the King of the North will come down with great anger...blah blah! Maybe their right after all!

At the beginning of this thread, I asked if you ever wonder how Hitler convinced a whole nation to believe themselves the superior race and accept ethnic cleansing as a means to achieving their proper station in this world. Maybe you now have a better idea of how they were blinded to follow such a bad path so long!

Canadian Institute of Humanities (Vancouver) tells their take of this Ukraine crisis and Canada's involvement https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIjMApxHYdw
These are more of our scholars who are now standing against Harper and Canada's involvement in this crisis. Seems these folks went there and claim close to 1 million refugees have now fled to Russia. They walk you thru the political aspects that caused this turmoil. Another interesting video.

I do also like the fact that these educated persons have drawn the same conclusions as I have and I can therefore profess not to have influenced any of you wrongly with any assumptions I've made throughout this thread.

- RT News: Putin challenging why all the war crimes being committed in Ukraine are not being investigated https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-RwGzDu_tk

It seems that Kiev has more of it's own problems peeking thru...

- National Guard protest corrupt government https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJtWpoKUKQU

- another protest starting elsewhere it seems https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiP_mjwDk4Y

- Ukraine News: Ukraine needs more bailout money https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr8WM0xUW24

Propaganda at work

- Ukraine Today: Ukraine Cyborg platoon praised as heroes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHQjTBPZLz0

- RT News: a new statue dedicated to the new soldier heroes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs4zn29k0Rc

- 1 of a few US ads on the web for donations to help Ukraine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhAMd15wPQM
note: they don't state where this money will go...not to the east where it is needed as this is the only region that is shelled! The only destruction in the west was from their own protesting

- Ukraine Today; promises anti-corruption campaign https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMVoJRe3sR8

- Ukraine Today: Poroshenko cans Minister of Defence https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvqT0YlngEM
seems they need a fall guy to blame all the bad press on

-Ukraine Today: Ukraine now has a field hospital https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BV8ycR0zMuI
note: the soldiers laying on beds are still dressed, no bandages or major injuries even showing... only tummyaches?

- Ukraine Today: again claim they are at war with Russian troops https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy11tdjPkFU
Another states that the Russians have just retreated. note they never ever show any Russians retreating, captured or otherwise, even now with all the OSCE drone surveillance going on.

- It seems they have now also made a musical video of this Ukraine war called "Pray for Ukraine" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEXaOMm5O5g
- this leads into a trailer for a movie by the same name https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEXaOMm5O5g
Now it struck me while watching these above 2 that those of the west Ukraine are quite angry people. After they protested in the streets, their anger grew and spilled into the Odessa massacre. This in turn led to their new leaders focusing this anger at those in eastern Ukraine. And you can see it has grown further and some now focus on Russia as the new target for their predicament. So how come those of the east don't show such hatred in turn, especially after all the cruel things of which has occurred to them? Like any fire, there has to be something fueling it to keep it alive.... where is it coming from and what is this fuel that keeps their tempers burning so hot?