Everyone wants a MAG and harps about it.

Protector, I know that this is difficult for you to believe, but not everyone has the same goals as you do. Sometimes groups of people are counter-productive.

In 1970, I had the experience of living on a commune. At the time, peace, love and back-to-the-land was the way of things. What it taught me was that people are people. Many will not do their share of work and be a drain on the whole. As the generations pass, it's my observation that the younger folks seem to have less discipline and possess an attitude of entitlement and don't know what it means to do hard things. This doesn't apply to everyone, but I'd have to say the majority that I've had dealings with fit into this category (and considering what I've done for a living, I've dealt with an awful lot of people over the years).

In teaching wilderness survival, it's become very apparent that how people get along in a group often changes when they have to undergo uncertainty and hardship. A shortage of food and water and the loss of the creature comforts that they've come to expect creates unbelievable changes. What you start with as a group, is seldom what you finish with...

The best MAG for me is my family (three fit military trained sons in their early 30's, Grandsons 8 and 13, a pioneer type wife and myself). Perhaps this would be extended to include Veteran military/police friends and their families, but this would be situational and based on need. Certainly cooperation is in order with neighbours and others who have special skill-sets that we don't possess. I would try to help anyone truly in-need.

What if they find my homestead and come take it come TEOTWAWKI?

I would never mess with a homesteader. Their much stronger than you and would beat you with experience. We're hunters/ trappers and protecting our land is what we do to survive. It's everything to us because the land protects our families in absence of a MAG. They'll pick easer targets than us and if not nobody will have o worry about them anymore.

Another fact is that a well-trained group of assaulters would not have any difficulty breaching the defenses of any homestead. If they have any brains, they'll NOT "pick easier targets than us." If that wisdom was correct, there would be no bank robberies as it's easier to rob the corner store.

You pick targets with the biggest reward and where do you think that is? Bob's apartment or a homestead that has water, power and a year's worth of provisions?? The best reliable defense is secrecy and not in fortifying your homestead. Fortification will attract the element you hope to avoid (I really don't understand how so many Preppers don't get this).

It has become clear to me Wayne that 95% of the time you only have negative things to say. Please stay away from my posts and I'll do the same for you promisse

I agree with both. You need a group of people who wotk together. Aka mag group or what ever you want to call it. Also agree with keeping it low key and a secret to a degree. There is 20 others in the group that come out when they can to help. 5 people that live full time on property with at least 2 on it at all times 24/7. We have a second location if first cant be held if shtf. That location is kept a secret till people prove themselves. Also very limited access to second property even in nice weather. He made sure it would be a pain to get to. Don't want anyone to be able to just drive in. Plus now we are looking at 160 acres to buy in the future. Possibly next yr. Plus closer to Edmonton instead of a 2.5 hr drive. Area we are now at is white court area.

It has become clear to me Wayne that 95% of the time you only have negative things to say. Please stay away from my posts and I'll do the same for you promisse

Hopefully, we're all here to learn something from the experiences of others. I believe that I've benefited in the past from all comments made and not only the ones that I happen to agree with.

From a MAG perspective, I hope that you're not as intolerant as your last post suggests. Not everyone in your MAG will agree with you all the time, When they don't, I hope you can be more open minded.

My opinions (like anyone's) are largely a reflection of my experiences. They're not the same experiences as others. No one has to agree with them and I reserve the right to comment on anything on this site. I hope you don't hesitate to do the same. Personally, I learn more from postings that respectfully challenge my position than agree with them.

It's unfortunate that you've felt offended by my post. That was not my intent.

Trem0Shad: Thank you very much for giving me hope. Your situation sounds ideal. Alberta is so much more conducive to MAG'S than my area. I'm hoping to have the same someday. I got an invite to meet some folks at a BOL so things are looking up. People think preppers are crazy but most I've met are professionals and vetted in society. In the know. It's about keeping families safe no matter what. No bodies an island. These Ppl see the best and worse in society just like I do everyday. If we're worried everyone should be. I like the idea that the second BOL is secret till they prove themselves. Making sure Ppl live at the BOL is important to me as well. In Africa Ppl live off mud and whatever they can find. 1000$ in food storage and Ppl can live a very very long time. Preppers don't worry me. That's fewer Ppl to worry about.

I agree with both. You need a group of people who wotk together. Aka mag group or what ever you want to call it. Also agree with keeping it low key and a secret to a degree. There is 20 others in the group that come out when they can to help. 5 people that live full time on property with at least 2 on it at all times 24/7. We have a second location if first cant be held if shtf. That location is kept a secret till people prove themselves. Also very limited access to second property even in nice weather. He made sure it would be a pain to get to. Don't want anyone to be able to just drive in. Plus now we are looking at 160 acres to buy in the future. Possibly next yr. Plus closer to Edmonton instead of a 2.5 hr drive. Area we are now at is white court area.

Thermo. Question for you. What the incentive for a shtf bol less ten 2.5 hours from major city? Is it more for Weekend access...? Shtf situations don’t usually occur out of the blue or would prevent you from doing backroad route to further location?

Not that I am ant better. In fact I am closer than you to major city. It just so happens I have a good setup and feel better here than in an area I am not known etc

Closer is mainly for work. 2.5 hrs there and back is 5 hrs added to my day i can think of a ton of different things i could get done. Plus closer would make it easyer to get other people out in a shtf issue. But winter is coming and this yr i decided not to work in the cold any more then i have to. Have enough side jobs set up this winter that i won't need to drive the crappy roads and deal with idiot drivers. Plus 160 acres means we can add more people to group and have more live out at the spot too. More hands makes stuff get done faster and less busting my ass off to get stuff done.

Closer is mainly for work. 2.5 hrs there and back is 5 hrs added to my day i can think of a ton of different things i could get done. Plus closer would make it easyer to get other people out in a shtf issue. But winter is coming and this yr i decided not to work in the cold any more then i have to. Have enough side jobs set up this winter that i won't need to drive the crappy roads and deal with idiot drivers. Plus 160 acres means we can add more people to group and have more live out at the spot too. More hands makes stuff get done faster and less busting my ass off to get stuff done.

Great thinking. I know it's probably on you but someone has to start the process.

The problem with blanket statements such as "the mauraders will kill you for your preps" or "you need more people to be able to be secure" is that everyone's situation is different. Demographics are not the same, and evry SHTF situation has it's own unique variables.

Maybe being a big target is a problem, maybe not.
Maybe being a small hidden group is a problem, maybe not.

Figure out what YOU think you need to do and let others do the same.

Another fact is that a well-trained group of assaulters would not have any difficulty breaching the defenses of any homestead. If they have any brains, they'll NOT "pick easier targets than us." If that wisdom was correct, there would be no bank robberies as it's easier to rob the corner store.

You pick targets with the biggest reward and where do you think that is? Bob's apartment or a homestead that has water, power and a year's worth of provisions?? The best reliable defense is secrecy and not in fortifying your homestead. Fortification will attract the element you hope to avoid (I really don't understand how so many Preppers don't get this).

the juice must be worth the squeeze, but there are many factors in this.

my place is the second last house on this road. the back way in isn't plough in winter, it's a hard and LONG hike to come up the back way on foot with snow.
but assuming they hit the BIGGER house they come to first, i'd hear it. i'd also have my MURS set up beyond their place to give me notice.if their place was assaulted, i'd be aggressively flanking the assault.
if they come from the easier direction, there are lots of houses before mine, and when they get to the last two, i'd not only hear them, but my MURS would also alert me from that direction. if they took the house from the back of the lake, they would have a back way to my place, and i'd make sure they never got that far…

assuming there was no one there to defend and they walked in and avoided my electronic eyes . . . there are three ways to get to my place. with fire positions set up in the barn, i'd have high ground and cover and concealment, able to cover the west, south west, east and northwest.

on the south side of my property i want to make a tree fort, free standing covered platform that could be lined with sand bags to give a firing position from the northeast to the southwest direction.

from my balcony i can hit southwest to east. there is a large open area that would be impossible to cross. coming up the lane would be suicide, and coming behind my house is the only safe way (but again only i know this) and can be made harder with fence/throwny plants and other interesting ideas to make you think twice.

so a well organized group of attackers would have only desperation and maybe numbers. they don't know where my electronic ears are ( MURS, chamberlains), they don't know i have night vision, IR lights, IR camera,, trip wires with lights (IR) or sound, and position that can be defended, i have kits for geo sensors that i need to get built, dogs. i have knowledge of the land and the foresight of how i'd have to attack the land, and what would stop me. fences and landscaping can make certain areas harder to access and can also lead people the way you want them, and who knows what might be between where you want to go and the seemingly easy way to get there. and the ability to take the first shot . . . . my goal is to make anyone think long and hard about trying to come closer.

area denial for people or vehicles isn't that hard, a saw, knife, axe, hammer/nails, shovel and barbed wire can do a lot, some dropped trees, foot tangles, holes, all make you think twice . . .

history shows that it takes a larger force to take over an area then it does to defend it. . . .

just some thoughts.

Entropy,

A trained assault team taking a target in a SHTF scenario, would be a dire one. In many cases the power necessary for a fortified location to sustain electronic surveillance (power) would likely be limited. In any case, it would likely have been rendered useless before the assault.

I disagree with your last statement in that you need more people to attack a position than to defend it. At least this is my experience, having done so several times as a member of a police tactical team.

I believe a clear advantage lies with the Assaulter. The team can do surveillance, formulate a plan based on routine, select the optimal assault package and execute. This would likely be done at night; each team member being equipped with night-vision and thermal. It's likely that the defensive occupants aren't similarly equipped. It's also reasonable to assume that the occupants have little training in a tactical scenario and have little experience with concussion grenades.

The likelihood on an experienced team wanting to take your property is remote. However much that is done "to fortify" a homestead is for the false sense of security it gives the owner and doesn't have the value that the owner perceives it has. Unfortunately, feeling secure seldom equates to actually being secure.

history shows that sieges always need more then the defenders. a police take down of unskilled people is a much different situation, just like an SAS team taking down a group of terrorists. it's all based on threat assessment.

how are they going to render a hidden IR motion sensor or the receiver useless?
how are they going to interrupt my power supply when it's in the middle of my property and off grid?

how many trained assault teams will be wondering around butt fuck no where? the twin counties have 167K people, most being in cities, and massive farm land with armed farmers. there would have to be a massive team to even make it to make it to my place. if they lost 1 member for every 10 houses they hit, i'm no where near where any team would be starting. they would have no vehicles to get near me, and on foot they have no cover from the road. like i said, i'd know there were before they knew i was here.

i'm just saying i have more things working for me then i do against me. reality is, i'm the middle of no where, with all those systems on hand, and able to run them for years. a highly trained assault team is unlikely to be any where near me.

history shows that sieges always need more then the defenders. a police take down of unskilled people is a much different situation, just like an SAS team taking down a group of terrorists. it's all based on threat assessment.

how are they going to render a hidden IR motion sensor or the receiver useless?
how are they going to interrupt my power supply when it's in the middle of my property and off grid?

I wasn't speaking of a siege, but of an assault (although historically defence of a fixed position has always ended-up in failure in modern times). In a siege the occupants are well aware that a prolonged attack is underway.

In an assault, it should be over before the occupants are fully aware of the threat, or have little time to prepare for it. Historically, the German Blitzkrieg or lightning attack proved its value. It changed warfare forever (but I'm getting off topic)...

I would not classify drug labs, motorcycle gangs and paramilitary groups as unskilled. They often employ trained personnel for security and utilize the best electronic surveillance methods available. Cost is no object and explosives/booby-traps are often implemented into the defence along with back-up power sources. They're regularly overcome by small tactical teams.

how many trained assault teams will be wondering around butt fuck no where? ...a highly trained assault team is unlikely to be any where near me.

As I've previously mentioned, I agree. If however the chances are so slim, it begs the question: Why have you invested so much in fortifications "in butt-fuck nowhere," 🙂 to protect yourself from what you feel is a low-level or non-existent threat?

I've been involved in over 50 actual assaults and hundreds of simulations. We haven't lost anyone but have sustained some injuries in training (broken leg in a helicopter insertion, etc.). In over 90% of the cases, well trained and equipped defenders never even got a shot off.

My point is that most defensive methods are designed to protect people and property in a powered society. Police services are available and on-line. The visibility of fortifications acts as a deterrent to the criminal element.

In a power-out SHTF situation where people are desperate and the Police are off-line, the situation is radically changed. Fortifications attract the people they were intended to deter. It's a two-edged sword. I believe the best defense is to keep a low profile.

I'm not critical of your position. You've taken the steps that you've seen fit to take. Each of us strive to do likewise. There's no right or wrong, as we each live with the choices we make. Obviously some of us live in areas that are extremely remote; while others live in or near highly populated areas. No one knows where they will ultimately find themselves, should tragedy strike.

It seems that you have an ideal situation in-that you are remote and prepared. Unfortunately, not everyone is so self-sustained, off-grid and accomplished. Many of us will have to deal with the crowds of unprepared people.

In such a scenario, bristling your property with Keep Out or Guard Dog signs (dogs provide good warning, but are otherwise useless in an armed assault), barbed wire, surveillance cameras, or solar panels will likely not result in the desired outcome. It just shines a spotlight and emphasises 'What I have is valuable and I plan on keeping it.' A line drawn in the sand...

The more visibly prepared you are to defend yourself, the higher the likelihood that you'll need to. As I've said before, the poor (or seemingly poor) are never afraid of becoming the target of robbery...

Interesting opinions, experience and plans in this thread.

If in a remote location, I would keep as low a profile as possible, work with or know who amongst the locals I could perhaps trust.

Conceal as much stuff as possible, conceal counter measures and if you have the means, get some thermal equipment to test for any heat signatures from your electronic counter measures.

Have a number of ways out of your home so you can escape if needed/ tunnels.... triangulation lines of fire

Consider lines of sight, early warning systems, window placements and abality to move about inside without being seen from a person a hundred... feet away.

Wayne’s idea of playing docile and leaving, only to return and regain control is excellent but one best hope it’s not winter because a search party going after that first shot or two will likely prove a challenge to avoid. Not impossible against a small group but certainly something to consider.

Then there is how to deal with your suburban or rural type situation. You live in a house that one typically wishes to make nice and secure. Nice because you care about how you live,appearances and value of home and secure because we all know there are thieves looking for crime of opportunity. I like keeping my rural place nice and am continually adding to my creature comforts. Landscaping and lots of effort put into making it look nice does say some money and I do have countermeasures. I am not going to make my place look run down to avoid being a target.

In a shtf situation, I will need to rely on security, network of folks and other means to try and maintain my scalp. Once had a work related friend come out and they immediately noticed some of the layout in the property. Experienced folk (good and bad) will see this and per Wayne’s note, many in organized crime and other types, do have a military background and or previous bad experiences with professionals, so they know what to look for this time around.

It boils down to degree and duration of event, where you are or will be, how to get or remain there, money you have for all the plans and ideas you have and knowledge on how people react and how to try and manipulate or work with or against them.

Severity of the situation drives or impacts all your plans.