..Conceal as much stuff as possible, conceal counter measures and if you have the means, get some thermal equipment to test for any heat signatures from your electronic counter measures.

Have a number of ways out of your home so you can escape if needed/ tunnels.... triangulation lines of fire

Consider lines of sight, early warning systems, window placements and abality to move about inside without being seen from a person a hundred... feet away.

Good points Clarence.

Wayne’s idea of playing docile and leaving, only to return and regain control is excellent but one best hope it’s not winter because a search party going after that first shot or two will likely prove a challenge to avoid. Not impossible against a small group but certainly something to consider.

Yes, in this case numbers are everything. You might have to take them out 2 or 3 at a time, you may have to make more than one trip... 🙂

I am not going to make my place look run down to avoid being a target.

I wouldn't suggest that you'd need to. Some basic rules to follow (in my view) are:

Don't flaunt what others need. Looking needy is better than looking prosperous.
Make sure that the property looks occupied. People will frequent unoccupied premises to loot.
Be friendly and greet others openly. Communication of what you don't have is important.
Hide anything of value/supplies. Where possible, only keep 24 hours of supplies available at any time (food, water, firewood, etc.)
If meat is visible I'd tell visitors that it's dog, rat, squirrel or grouse, but trapping hasn't been too good.
Keep as low of a profile that you can. Minimize smoke, light and sound; live under the radar.

It boils down to degree and duration of event, where you are or will be, how to get or remain there, money you have for all the plans and ideas you have and knowledge on how people react and how to try and manipulate or work with or against them.

Severity of the situation drives or impacts all your plans.

Well said.

..Conceal as much stuff as possible, conceal counter measures and if you have the means, get some thermal equipment to test for any heat signatures from your electronic counter measures.

Have a number of ways out of your home so you can escape if needed/ tunnels.... triangulation lines of fire

Consider lines of sight, early warning systems, window placements and abality to move about inside without being seen from a person a hundred... feet away.

Good points Clarence.

Wayne’s idea of playing docile and leaving, only to return and regain control is excellent but one best hope it’s not winter because a search party going after that first shot or two will likely prove a challenge to avoid. Not impossible against a small group but certainly something to consider.

Yes, in this case numbers are everything. You might have to take them out 2 or 3 at a time, you may have to make more than one trip... 🙂

I am not going to make my place look run down to avoid being a target.

I wouldn't suggest that you'd need to. Some basic rules to follow (in my view) are:

Don't flaunt what others need. Looking needy is better than looking prosperous.
Make sure that the property looks occupied. People will frequent unoccupied premises to loot.
Be friendly and greet others openly. Communication of what you don't have is important.
Hide anything of value/supplies. Where possible, only keep 24 hours of supplies available at any time (food, water, firewood, etc.)
If meat is visible I'd tell visitors that it's dog, rat, squirrel or grouse, but trapping hasn't been too good.
Keep as low of a profile that you can. Minimize smoke, light and sound; live under the radar.

It boils down to degree and duration of event, where you are or will be, how to get or remain there, money you have for all the plans and ideas you have and knowledge on how people react and how to try and manipulate or work with or against them.

Severity of the situation drives or impacts all your plans.

Well said.

One issue
I wouldn't suggest that you'd need to. Some basic rules to follow (in my view) are:

Don't flaunt what others need. Looking needy is better than looking prosperous.
Make sure that the property looks occupied. People will frequent unoccupied premises to loot.
Be friendly and greet others openly. Communication of what you don't have is important.
Hide anything of value/supplies. Where possible, only keep 24 hours of supplies available at any time (food, water, firewood, etc.)
If meat is visible I'd tell visitors that it's dog, rat, squirrel or grouse, but trapping hasn't been too good.
Keep as low of a profile that you can. Minimize smoke, light and sound; live under the radar.

WAYNE:

I can’t hide my nice house and out buildings, so will need to play the recently down and out bad luck, we are all frigged by the man story line. Wear worn clothing or if you do have a nice shirt on, make it look like it’s from a bygone era. certainly agree with need to fit in with environment and have and can still do it. Very important that folks practice this skill set because it can be a real life saver. You look like some stuck up snob and your toast, play submissive to much and the same thing. Need to see who is who in the gang, big shot but no real power, quite one watching you, the hyper druggie or alcoholic, the pervert etc etc. A little humility, little bravado, playing confused..., need time (short) to figure out the players and still understand you may not have them truly figured out. Then think of how to work it. It’s a refined crap shoot.

As initial threats will likely come from local morons and thugs, it’s wise to know/ recognize who the immediate ones are, what they drive, who sits beside them in their pickup and parks in their yard. As out of towers move in, it will be more difficult. They will be more hardened, likely more desperate and harder to hoodwink. Plus side is they don’t know who your allies are or topography.

Lots of trade craft to try and get out in a short message but it’s important people understand how to play people in various circumstances. If one is an executive and never been in a snot hole bar, I would recommend they go with someone and get a bit of a taste. Go and chat with some moron in the hardware store and practice asking him questions on nails or joking about some politicians or hockey game. Anything for a non experienced person to get to know a bit about the other side of the track and what it feels like to be initially rebuffed yet eventually gain a bit of their confidence or attention. If you would never talk to that person in the isle, go do it!

Your 24 hour supply of visible goods is a wise practice. Moan and groan, plead, get mad.. at them taking it, seek their input on where you can perhaps get in on future takings...anything and everything to get them to ignore you as a threat or victim and move on, or in your case, allow them to move in while you move out to hidy hole. Play the confused fool it you think it will work. One has to look genuine or you will be detected as a fraud and then your in real pain.
If obvious, that you once had money, you can play the victim of some corporate pig who bankrupted your pension plan at the institute for the blind or some other form of employment that they may have sentiments for. Whatever lie you tell. You need to know some good backround on it, so if ever challenged with I know someone there... it’s plausible.
Try and stick to your real life as much as possible. It’s near impossible to reinvent yourself and not get tripped up.

Going to be impossible to hide solar panels and batteries so that’s a challenge for some. same for those with gardens or livestock. One will either need to have backups or be able to get that stuff back. Or fade away as you promote and hope to dispatch them before they kill those chickens for a meal.

One hell of a bloody mess when you boil it down.

...Going to be impossible to hide solar panels and batteries so that’s a challenge for some. same for those with gardens or livestock. One will either need to have backups or be able to get that stuff back. Or fade away as you promote and hope to dispatch them before they kill those chickens for a meal.

One hell of a bloody mess when you boil it down.

If the SHTF for real, there will be many people who live in nice houses, dress in expensive cloths and possess nice vehicles (that they have no gasoline to drive). These people will be destitute, have nothing to eat and be unprepared for the future. They will likely not be a target, as they have nothing that will further a person's survival. In fact, they are needy and may become dangerous and an element that we will have to deal with. You cannot judge who's needy by today's standards.

The wealthy are the ones with a source of heat, water, food and electrical power. Those who have these things will have to protect them. The easiest way is to possess a secure hidden location for these items out-of-sight of the needy.

Hiding resources can certainly be difficult. Solar panels can be mounted on the south side of a roof, the north side facing the road (visibly no solar panels). The planning process can start with the home purchase or how you want it built. Rocket stove type fireplaces can be built that will omit no smoke, yet provide an excellent heat source. etc. etc... Secrecy is a major factor to be considered. Having something and keeping it will not necessarily go hand-in-hand.

It seems reasonable to me that part of being prepared is not only acquiring key resources, but hiding them. I don't want anyone knowing where these are simply by coming into my home.

Hiding gardens on a larger property isn't difficult, It just requires more effort. In-fact some Meth Labs have been hidden in out-buildings in the trees where no one would think anything existed.

Wayne, agree with what you say about meth lab. Pot growers are always screwing around the farms near me, hiding plots in the bush and along creeks. Never found any on my property.

So, given the fact we have snow for a good portion of the year, the issue of leaving even a small beaten down path to a cache in the woods etc, the likely best hidey holes are in out buildings and material for your 24 hour use theme is gathered each or every second night. This assuming a neighbour looking out their window on a 02:00 bathroom break doesn’t see you going back and forth every night.

I am a thousand feet off the road surrounded on three sides by bush and unless they start creeping around my place no neighbour will see me walk around but it’s something most people will need to consider. Cutting of firewood is another challenge that I think for my case will be near impossible to conceal. That said, there are forests all around me, so people will be simply trespassing and taking whatever down trees are available or cutting up new ones. Plenty of water around for folks to use. Biggest thing will be food, power and then people looking for tools and any other items of value. And yes, the lazy thug who simply wont go collect wood on their own but just wants to take yours!

I like your idea of little garden patches in the woods but that takes one away from homestead for extended periods of time and potentially leaves people without added help. A discrete method of alerting you would be advisable. This would also give one a chance to target the perps from outside while they are harassing ones wife or family member. Also a Potential hostage situation! One option would be for everyone to go care for garden together and not only do chores faster but offer mutual protection. Gaureented one will eventually bump into people in the woods! I have three neighbours who butt up against my property and gaureenteed two will be an issue. Then we have a little nearby development of 19 homes on tiny one acre lots who will be looking for firewood, meat... I am fortunate in having many large farms around us, but there are some City commuters who I already have had to chase off the property as they walk about on their nature and dog walking strolls.

But remote plots can’t be protected at night and as I already know I will have people wandering around picking up firewood etc, I would go for option of garden within sight, sound and counter measure range of house. If there is no dog, some good trip wire... devices would be handy.

Wayne, agree with what you say about meth lab. Pot growers are always screwing around the farms near me, hiding plots in the bush and along creeks. Never found any on my property.

We raided a huge drug lab (complete with security, surveillance systems and generators that had operated for five-years. It was in the centre of a cornfield on a large farm. amazing.

...some good trip wires devices would be handy.

Yes, there're many ways to protect your position and/or your property. At some point in a SHTF situation, the gloves come off.

I truly hope that no one has to live through such times, but should this happen I'd want to be around to help my family (even if I was in a wheelchair at a bench making useful devices).

history shows that sieges always need more then the defenders. a police take down of unskilled people is a much different situation, just like an SAS team taking down a group of terrorists. it's all based on threat assessment.

how are they going to render a hidden IR motion sensor or the receiver useless?
how are they going to interrupt my power supply when it's in the middle of my property and off grid?

I wasn't speaking of a siege, but of an assault (although historically defence of a fixed position has always ended-up in failure in modern times). In a siege the occupants are well aware that a prolonged attack is underway.

In an assault, it should be over before the occupants are fully aware of the threat, or have little time to prepare for it. Historically, the German Blitzkrieg or lightning attack proved its value. It changed warfare forever (but I'm getting off topic)...

I would not classify drug labs, motorcycle gangs and paramilitary groups as unskilled. They often employ trained personnel for security and utilize the best electronic surveillance methods available. Cost is no object and explosives/booby-traps are often implemented into the defence along with back-up power sources. They're regularly overcome by small tactical teams.

how many trained assault teams will be wondering around butt fuck no where? ...a highly trained assault team is unlikely to be any where near me.

As I've previously mentioned, I agree. If however the chances are so slim, it begs the question: Why have you invested so much in fortifications "in butt-fuck nowhere," 🙂 to protect yourself from what you feel is a low-level or non-existent threat?

I've been involved in over 50 actual assaults and hundreds of simulations. We haven't lost anyone but have sustained some injuries in training (broken leg in a helicopter insertion, etc.). In over 90% of the cases, well trained and equipped defenders never even got a shot off.

My point is that most defensive methods are designed to protect people and property in a powered society. Police services are available and on-line. The visibility of fortifications acts as a deterrent to the criminal element.

In a power-out SHTF situation where people are desperate and the Police are off-line, the situation is radically changed. Fortifications attract the people they were intended to deter. It's a two-edged sword. I believe the best defense is to keep a low profile.

I'm not critical of your position. You've taken the steps that you've seen fit to take. Each of us strive to do likewise. There's no right or wrong, as we each live with the choices we make. Obviously some of us live in areas that are extremely remote; while others live in or near highly populated areas. No one knows where they will ultimately find themselves, should tragedy strike.

It seems that you have an ideal situation in-that you are remote and prepared. Unfortunately, not everyone is so self-sustained, off-grid and accomplished. Many of us will have to deal with the crowds of unprepared people.

In such a scenario, bristling your property with Keep Out or Guard Dog signs (dogs provide good warning, but are otherwise useless in an armed assault), barbed wire, surveillance cameras, or solar panels will likely not result in the desired outcome. It just shines a spotlight and emphasises 'What I have is valuable and I plan on keeping it.' A line drawn in the sand...

The more visibly prepared you are to defend yourself, the higher the likelihood that you'll need to. As I've said before, the poor (or seemingly poor) are never afraid of becoming the target of robbery...

why have i invested in a security system when i don't believe i'll see high lever threats?
why do i have any preps when i don't see a real threat of massive collapse?
it's not the law that makes me keep up car insurance or house insurance it's the "what if" that makes me pay them each month.

but the best reason to have anything like this. . . is to KNOW when someone enters my property (chamberlain) and then to have video of what they do (for litigation ) in good times. if things go bad, these system reaches out.

as for sticking out? my cameras can't be seen by the road, nothing can, save part of my barn from the other side of the lake . . .. nothing sticks out in my system, no one would know anything is under protection. i have no big signs saying keep out, or dogs etc. if i was too use them, they would be very much closer to my house then. everything about my system is if you know about it, it's too late for you . . . if you are close enough to see it, i already know you are seeing it.

each house/property is different, but my property is not the biggest, or the richest, it's assets will be more valuable during a SHTF, but that's when my ability to protect them would be greatest. my system would be further from my property and there would be eyes on the area all the time. there are natural barriers that protect my area, and i've done the rest.

my biggest concern isn't mutant zombie bikers, or assault teams, it's the hungry kids down the road . . . because their father will do anything to not see his babies cry with a hungry belly. . . and i have plans for dealing with him too. . .

There is always an element that uses cameras, motion detectors and other electronic devices for surveillance. On the other hand, counter surveillance equipment can be used to jam signals and detect cameras from a distance. This nullifies many of the advantages the surveillance system provides.

For the most part, the advantage lies with people who implement surveillance systems, as the greatest majority of people don't possess counter-surveillance equipment (nor have the knowledge how to operate it if they had it available). Then there are the trained professionals (who may also have kids to feed)…

The main disadvantage of possessing properly hidden surveillance equipment is the common found belief that they're invulnerable. They have surveillance equipment so they're safe. This is only true to a certain extent. Good talk.

There is always an element that uses cameras, motion detectors and other electronic devices for surveillance. On the other hand, counter surveillance equipment can be used to jam signals and detect cameras from a distance. This nullifies many of the advantages the surveillance system provides.

For the most part, the advantage lies with people who implement surveillance systems, as the greatest majority of people don't possess counter-surveillance equipment (nor have the knowledge how to operate it if they had it available). Then there are the trained professionals (who may also have kids to feed)…

The main disadvantage of possessing properly hidden surveillance equipment is the common found belief that they're invulnerable. They have surveillance equipment so they're safe. This is only true to a certain extent. Good talk.

Agreed. It’s a tool. But without a man on the desk lisenting for the alert and able to communicate security to the person outside with eyes ( and scopes) on the AO, it’s nothing more then a toy.

It’s early warning but like all machine, they only do one job. . . And can break. I think more good is placed on knowing your neighbours and having a good working relationship with them ( I don’t) well one, I guess. One really doesn’t like me

But in the long run I’m much better off then anyone on my block. And while my place is nice. I’m the poor kid, and there is only one other poor kid on our street. But he’s unarmed. (His extended family memeber is a special security guy at a nuclear plant and he hates me, so I hope he doesn’t show up there ) he’s my biggest fear. Lives pretty far off though.

When I was with the teams I was offered a job as head of the Bruce Power tactical team. The guy that was i/c of security for Ontario Power was ex-OPP. I decided to stay with the Force, but at that time they were listed as one of the best response teams in the world. Obviously they knew their stuff. There are many security professionals outside of the police field that people have to be prepared for if the SHTF. Many of these are ex-military / JTF types.

For me, the ones to worry about are the ones that have experienced being shot at. All the training in the world means little until you get that wake-up call. Suddenly you're palaying for keeps and it comes accross as a bit of a shock (regardless of what your expectations were before then). I don't worry about the gun lovers. as It takes a specific type of person to be able to pull the trigger on another human being. A couple of my friends were eliminated in the psychology testing phase of tactical team selection. They were good guys that I trusted and continued to trust on the job, but they showed a response delay in testing. Delay can get you or a team member killed.

Like I mentioned, these would be dark times for everyone. I can't say that I'd look forward to having to survive in such a world.

history shows two very different faces. NY power outages and people got flashlights and helped people cross streets. good people come out.
but then the super dome post katerina (even with some of the stories being proven made up and exaggerated ) things were bad . . . bad people take advantage.

ideally i'd like to help others, i plan to have more food then i can eat or process. i don't eat meat, but would like to have the option for breeding chickens, goats, rabbits and dogs (oh the dogs aren't to eat though) i'd like more land, but that's likely not in the cards. but i plan to use what i have to the fullest, and be able to expand with hot beds and green houses. a large part of my old garden floods and isn't a reliable growing area (1/3 of my land is under water part of the year) years down the road i might try to dig the ponds deeper and add the soil to the area that sometimes floods. (might fix the flooding problem?) nothing i grow can be seen from the road. i will have a lot to share . . . . but bad people take advantage, and the good and weak won't last long.

all the shows walking dead, or whatever. . . there is always the guy that everyone said "kill him now while you can" i hope never to meet him, and if i do. . . . .

if you read david groomsman's "on combat" (follow up to his "on killing") it talks about how training changed from WWII to Vietnam to better prepare soldiers to pull the trigger. it worked . . . but it didn't prepare them for the psychological damage taking a life left after. i'm sure you're aware of the very small number of people that can be snipers, and even some of them may not pull the trigger. i think part of the issue can be mental prepared for, but part of it comes down to mental resilience, the ability to do what is needed no matter what. . . . the more antisocial traits one carries helps too.

hope for the good and prepare for the bad i guess.

I'm not a Psychiatrist, but certainly have been periodically screened by enough of them. 🙂 I've asked a few of them what they're looking for in regards to the screening process of a tactical team member. Apparently there is a really fine line that has to be met.

When I started out, I asked myself if I could squeeze the trigger. In my thinking, this was the question that the Psychiatrists were searching for. This was however only one part of the equation.

How does the operator refrain from pulling the trigger? Too soon, he may jeopardize the mission. Fire discipline can be just as crucial as the ability to take the shot. How well does he communicate under stress? Can he follow instructions in the heat of things? Does a chaotic and loud situation affect his judgement?

I've done some reading on the success of old west gunfighters and it was proposed that the reason why many of them were successful wasn't that they were faster, but they were deliberate in their actions and without hesitation. Today, numerous skilled people own firearms, but like there counterparts in the old west they are unlikely to have the deliberate action required when faced with a professional. Interesting stuff...

I am late to this party and I am about to poke a stick into this thread. I mean no disrespect so please don't jump on me if I say something that you disagree with. I had to google MAG as I had no clue what it meant.

A lot of "talk" in prepping groups is of the "what if" this happens or "what if" that happens. I have found "what if" doesn't usually work. I choose to see the SHTF one way, others see it another. I do not see the world coming apart in one big piece, I see it happening slowly every day. I also see MAG in every day life already taking place - the neighbours on your street (if you are lucky), the people in your church (if you go), the people you play sports with, the members of your "local whatever". Every one of these little groups is a small mutual assistance group.

In my opinion, it is the small groups that you need to start building. Start with the block on your street. It will give you the basic skills to work with a larger group. NO ONE can do it a lone. If you want to homestead, then homestead. I believe the expression that applies here is -- if you build it they will come.

It was nice to see how the city pulled together in Ottawa an area, I am going to believe the news that there was no stealing etc. I am also going to believe what I am seeing on my own facebook which is folks offering beds, fridges for meds, hot meals, pick ups if you need them. Folks coming out with willing hands, chain saws and so forth.

Truly for hundreds of families, Friday changed their worlds.. They just has a SHTF moment.. and they will be feeling the after effects for months/years to come. The real question is not sure the first response but how we will be able to help them in the longer term.

On the flip side.. they had to tell people to stop using candles as they had a number of people end up with fires in their homes on Friday night due to the power loss and they had issues with the fire fighters being able to help as spread to thin. They had so many folks that didn't have any food in the house.. we are talking a day in?? that they opened up different places but there was limits of one per person etc.

I saw some folks shine and I saw some folks admit that they didn't even know where their flashlight was?

How does the operator refrain from pulling the trigger? Too soon, he may jeopardize the mission. Fire discipline can be just as crucial as the ability to take the shot. How well does he communicate under stress? Can he follow instructions in the heat of things? Does a chaotic and loud situation affect his judgement?

interesting about the old west!

the quoted section above is the main pointed i wanted to touch on.
navy seals are trained with live rounds and explosions directed at them during obstacle courses.
Marine Recon will run drills with drill instructions yelling at them, using blow horns and they must maintain their groupings while shotting (they run, jump, think, and have to shot while being distracted and yelled at)

i'm sure many other types of training forces use simular things. cool and collected under pressure.
i damn near wanna cut and paste kiplings "If" poem here lol

there really is no end to how much tactical training could be improved on . . .

Entropy,

I feel that your assessment is accurate. I went through an obstacle course with the U.S.Army that had a fixed .50 caliber machine gun firing and sweeping side-to-side at 3 feet above the ground (over barbed wire you had to crawl under). This added to the noise of grenades going off makes you a bit tense. Everyone knew that you're safe as long as you kept under the wire. You know that no one is shooting 'at you.'

There are lots of real dangers in training. These mainly consist of the individual not following instructions. When someone tries to take your life, it's a wake-up call. You've thought about this, trained for this, but when the time comes it somehow becomes different.

Being around a dangerous situation is different than walking into one. When the lethal danger is directed at you, it's a whole different matter. It's as personal as it gets and it's hard not to take it personally.

It seems odd that if you train to be a gunfighter, that you become surprised that someone actually tries to kill you. Boxers aren't surprised when they get hit. I suppose it's because of the training they receive. Until the time we use real bullets directed at operators in training, it will be this way (I'm in no way suggesting that this be the case). 🙂 Lasers just don't cut it; everyone knows it's not real. Simulators have their uses, then the time comes...

I understand why people could hesitate or even want to run away. Any job that requires you to run towards danger, when everyone else is running away demands something different from that individual.