My 2 cents on it. If it's going to be permanent in that spot. Then yes it can be done. Do to a few factors. Concrete footings as wide a hay bail at 12 inches or higher off the ground. So no water can get to it off ground. But before you do that you will want to rubber membrane around it or at least poly it and use spray glue to hold it in place. This way any cold by chance hits poly and keeps it from hitting the metal. Then you could chicken wire from footing on hay and do a concrete scratch coat. But personally I wouldn't do it like that myself. I like stuff to be mobile. Just in case you have to bug out from your location. Will post later tonight the way I would do it. When I get home

I was pondering the base, had only considered a layer of garden mesh & poly so far - a rubber membrane sounds like a better idea. Digging a little deeper through the internets today, looks like a hydrated lime plaster makes a good cold-weather coating in Canada. The only issue I see, at this point is sealing around the front and back edges. I think you'd want to keep moisture/animals/insects from creeping in through there, so finding a way to seal up against the frame around the seacan doors would be critical.

This would be a more permanent solution - I don't think, if I was bugging out, I'd want to haul a 40' seacan behind me. My seacan will be welded to a permanent concrete base, piers/wall/slab of some kind. I mean, I guess you could yank the seacan out from its place, hammer off the leftover coating and be on your way, if you really needed to take it with you. For me, this would be more of a base camp.

I had hoped to avoid a full concrete slab, just to avoid the expense of it, and logistics of building it out in the sticks, was thinking more like a gravel base along the edge, with a membrane, maybe folded up 10 centimetres to protect the bale wall from excess water during heavy rain. Do you think I'd have to worry about the wall settling? I'm thinking I' maybe weld a bunch of eyelets along the top and bottom of the long edge, to run wire through and cinch the bales close to the walls. The wire mesh overlay might work well enough, though, for that.

.

Okay for my long ass post. Also I personally build everything so it can be moved if need be. First off if your building a place with out a concrete slab you have to account for mold in your crawl space. I call it white mold. Now if no slab you should use a rubber membrane. Best is roof or pond style membrane. Reason for this is do to white mold. If you have forced air threw your furnace duct and the spores release and you have by chance a leak in your duct work it can get into the air you breath in your place. Now if you do a crawl space make sure you go high enough so you can get under it for any repairs on stuff. I would say give yourself 3ft minimum height. Now for footing style. You have a few options. You can do concrete or screw piles from home depot and then cinder blocks to basically skirt it. Now if it's a stick frame house with a crawl space. Best option to help insulate floor is spray foam you only need 3 inches for R21 make sure you are using 2lbs or 3 lbs type foam. It has it's own vapor barrier and anti mold in it. You can get it for a good price at consolidated drywall. That is either yellow or blue or green in color. Red color is fire retardant in it. But don't forget to lay poly on floor joist before you plywood floor. Now if you do the spray foam yourself make sure you do it in plus 10 Celsius or higher temp and make sure you get the right respirator. Also only do a inch at a time thickness max and move on and then back to area you started and so on. Reason for that is if you spray a area to thick the middle will not cure and give of fumes that can make you sick. Now seacans are a little bit tricky because they are designed to be air tight and moisture can build up fast and rust and mold becomes a issue. There is a few options to deal with it. Now don't cheap out if your building anything your going to live in. Seacans cost more in the long run to do right then a stick built house. At least in my eyes. First off you have to build inside walls as floating walls plus floor you poly and then stud and insulate then poly and sheet. You never screw anything to seacan floor or walls or ceiling.
In other world you stick frame or steel studs never touch the outside walls. If you do your changing the structure strength. Your insulation also should never touch the outside walls like a basement outside walls. They sweat. But to do R20 in a seacan right your looking at losing 8 inches on all walls do to 2x6 plus 2 inches play so wall and insulation don't touch seacan walls. So its better to poly out side of seacan and then stick frame it and then build up from cinder blocks or concrete footings. Don't forget to give enough room so doors can open inside stick frame. On each end or one side. Depending on type of seacan. Also all walls you will want to be 6 inches or more above you ceiling insulation. Reason for that is if the wall gets moisture it will flow up into attic and out vents. So only side walls will get soffits for air flow and 2 vents per side or roof will be needed unless you do a peak vent. Personally I would slope roof to one side in case you want to add another seacan later to make it bigger. Then slope roof other way. Now if you have any questions on building stuff PM me. Have over 30 yrs building stuff and a jack of all trades in it. Mainly do to idiot's forgetting to do there job right. I have built houses from ground up and also used to work for knotty pine cabins. Now personally don't let them build it for you lol. I have seen the work there trades people do and its crap. The average joe could do a better job then most of them. Now all my references will tell you I have a higher code then a inspector does. I don't give a crap if they pass the work. If it's not up to my code it's a fail and they have a choose to come fix it or I back charge them to get it done like it's my house. Now 2 good builders in Alberta are London homes or DMH homes. I personally know them and they will build almost any place in Canada and go above and beyond only 2 home builders I would trust if I didn't do the work myself. Rest are a joke. Trust me I have worked all over Canada for different builders and only trust them. They over kill every thing they don't cheap out like the rest do. But hear if you need me. Aka peppercorn knows his shit on solar stuff. We chat threw text and call each other now and then. He might comes across as a asshole but he knows his shit in that area. He is a good guy even though I haven't met him in person. Maybe one day we will. Just never workes out for us lol.

Thanks for the reponse, term0shad, sounds like you have a lot experience applying traditional building techniques to seacans.

I had hoped to mitigate against the whole interior mould issue by not building anything against the interior walls of my seacan, leave them bare, insulate on the outside, and make no significant modifications to the seacan itself. I think you're right, re:cost - seacans are more expensive than stick-frame dwellings, should only really be considered if you are in need of locking it down securely, or need the robust construction of an unmodded can. I, personally, would be approaching this construction with simplicity in mind. Things like forced-air furnaces aren't even on the radar. A woodstove for primary heat, perhaps gravity-plumbed water, 2 exits and enough ventilation to be safe. The interior pieces would be modular, furniture, dividing walls, etc.

The roof had given me pause for thought, the other day. I think I would have to bow it a bit, maybe just built it with plaster,so water runs off of it. In a perfect world, I'd cant it to one side, so I could collect all the rainwater in a single embedded eavestrough, I guess, so perhaps shaping the roof during construction would be worthwhile, in the end.

It sounds like there's no escaping a concrete slab underneath, my greatest concern with a pier foundation was creating a home for undesirable critters. Maybe a slab's better, thermally, anyway. I believe there is a heavy foam insulation that can go under slabs to insulate them, which would go a long way to keeping the seacan floor warm(er), once it's wrapped in a thick insulation.

So whatya think, about breaking away from some of the traditional building techniques used on seacans? Do you think a seacan on a slab, insulated from the outside using bales coated in plaster, would make a usable living environment?

.

Yep it would work fine. The concrete insulation is expensive it all depends on weight. Find out seacan Weight then x3 or x4 for over kill. That is a basic for type of insulation you want. Personally I would also run water line in the concrete and then you could have a heated slab. But you want to be a foot in on walls of seacan. So your not heating your hay walls for condensation. You then could basically do a antifreeze mix and use the wood stove to heat water and if you really want to you could also use heater cores to heat the seacan. But would need a baffle set up. So you could adjust the flow of water to heater cores to control temperature if need be. But fan at heater core should be enough to control temp in area. Basically think on how your heating in a vehicle works. Also could heat your shower and sink water that way too. But you might want to also have a fire place outside to heat shower water in summer. Don't want a fire in plus 20 Celsius inside place. Sweat your balls off that way. I try and think outside the box and design stuff for 100% off grid. Plus not cheap to run off propane for everything. But if propane you might want to do like the offgrid trailer I'm building and have seprate hook ups for all propane stuff. So each area has it's own bottle. Wood is free in the long run. Plus I'm trying out the heater core and floor heating in that unit. I have 4 types of heating. Wood , propane and pot belly diesel heater and electric heat also. I follow the rule of 4. Same as power have solar and generator and going to get also a windmill or build one and then I also have 2 vehicles that if need be we plug trailers to and charge batteries. I personally built ever fire place myself. Also if you think about it. You can basically learn how to do everything from YouTube and Google. Just do your research and from all different sources. Then go from there. Don't trust 1 source. If this stupid site would let me post pics lol. I have tried every setting on phone for pics and even tryed to shrink them. Still won't let me. But gf going to set up a YouTube area this summer to upload all videos on stuff I have built from scratch and tested to make sure it works

Term0shad, what are you doing? you cant tell us what all you have built and not show pictures! Pictures are required!

If you build a windmill, I can recommend these types..... https://www.otherpower.com/otherpower-store

Lol will try again to post pics tomorrow. Will try lowest setting on phone and far away to crop pic and see if it up loads. But recall you tried to help me on the issue way back. If not maybe I will see if I can use there lap top at one of the group out here. Always looking after there place and making sure fire is going. Then again it could just be the connection timing out. Does odd time on text mag pics also.

term0shad, good advice. I've been contemplating various heating methods for a number of years, while I backbuild the coin and time needed to follow through. The internet has become an awesome resource for this kinda thing, eh?

You're not the first person to suggest in-floor heating to me. I have an acquaintance who runs an external wood&coal-fired boiler, heats his shop through PEX hose embedded in the slab, he seems happy with it (doesn't care to stoke it in blizzards). Access to coal has become more difficult for him, but wood is still readily available. I can't say exactly why I am shying away from that method, perhaps because I don't like the idea of the hose being permanently cast into the floor, but I think I prefer the old-skool method of running a finned radiator along the bottom edge of the wall, to dissipate heat into a room. Something I can readily access & troubleshoot, when it starts to fail. I recall that a newer wing in NAIT uses this type of heat exchange, for both heating and cooling. A similar set of finned rads runs at the high-point of a hallway, for instance, has chilled coolant flowing through it, absorbs heat from the area. Neat stuff, very low power consumption, just the smallest of pumps for a very large area.

The longer I consider the merits of insulating with bales, the further I seem to commit to the idea - having difficulty seeing the negatives ATM. Was also thinking that my utilities can, holding the batteries, charge controllers, and inverters, possibly stored water circulation & purification, will need a stabilized environment, and thinking that if it was located in a bale-insulated seacan, I could probably run a relatively small, shallow geo-thermal loop to both heat and cool. Again, I am a tad uncomfortable with embedded hoses, but being encased in earth is not as difficult as concrete. I suspect summer would be OK, I'd just vent to atmosphere during the dog days, am more concerned with keeping the place warm in winter. I *must* have a simple system that doesn't make me dependent on a commercially-supplied energy source (propane, say).

I've been researching compost heating for some time, now, as well; it is on the list of things to pursue ASAP. Jean Pain did a tonne of work experimenting with compost piles, worth looking into if you're inclined. Seems to me that a large compost heap of Poplar chips is a superior way of "burning" the wood, as opposed to tossing it in a wood stove, for heat. Plus, you get a huge pile of excellent earth, in Spring, to expand the garden plot. A whole lotta win going on there. It looks like a good method to employ with hydronic heating, although it seems even the best-made heap will only last a few months - you'd either need two of them and stagger their starts, or a single one to work during just the coldest months.

Ultimately, a propane burner to fall back on is necessary, for sure. You really can't beat carbon for reliable, persistent heat. In my ideal world, it would sit forever at the ready, but never used (one of the reasons propane is the superior carbon fuel). Good to have it handy, though. I've got a couple of direct vent heaters that require no electricity. Piezo-electric spark for the pilot light, integrated bi-metal thermostat governing the main burn. I use a small one made by Bismar/Martin in my current shack, it works well enough, I'm sure it would perform admirably in an insulated space.

So, would you consider wrapping a seacan in bales, *without* putting a concrete slab under it? Say, pier supports embedded in the ground, "rising" to ground level +10cm, with a gravel base filled to the floor, and the seacan sitting on that. Or would you say that the bales must sit on a concrete foundation that also supports the seacan. I guess you wouldn't want the can sinking fast than the bale walls...

I wonder, also, if it might be worth it to go with those huge square bales, instead of small ones. I'm not very familiar with the larger ones, but they look like they are strung together better, the photos I've seen show baling twine/wire in all directions. They look more tightly packed, though, which maybe adds to their structural characteristics, but undermines the insulating quality. Anyone familiar with the large bales?

.

As long as you make sure the bales don't soak up water off the ground. That's why I recommend the roof or pool membrane. It's way stronger then just poly. Was thinking you could use rubber paint on outside of seacan to give you a vapor barrier from moisture. We used to spray foam oil tanks and then add rubber paint to seal it. But that was 1 pound foam. It didn't have it's own vapor barrier in it. You could go with screw piles or do round concrete footings to keep see can from sinking. Only thing is you want to make it below the frost line at least 2ft just in case the ground shifts. That can be 4 ft to 8 ft. All depends on what's under you. Don't forget to anchor your seacan to the footings. Here in Alberta insurance company's call for it. Just in case a tornado hits. But I'm sure it still won't help and it would RIP place apart. Plus you will need one every 10 ft max footings that is.

You think it would be necessary to coat a seacan in more paint than it already possesses? I was under the impression that the coating on it was pretty resilient, meant to last out at sea for many trips. I mean, I'll be using a 1-trip, so it's in fine shape. Never really considered putting an additional coating on it, will have to weigh that options for a bit.

Been thinking about alternate ways to cinch the bales to the seacan. Plan 'A' was to weld a bunch of eyelets along the base and roof line, secure chicken wire to it, and pull it tight against the outside of the bales, use it as the medium to apply the plaster. I wonder if a plastic/nylon mesh might be better suited for that role, though. Maybe, like, a bunch of snow fence or something. Not sure if, when the wire ultimately rusts through, whether it'll give me grief, or if the bales and plaster will stand on their own, once the plaster cures..

.

Better to over kill then not. I would coat with rubber paint or at least poly. Use spray glue to hold poly tightly to it. Start from bottom up. 6 inch over lap minable. Now snow fence might work if you have a tie off to wall off seacan. Could get it nice and tight. But now I might be wrong. But if I recall when I did hay for farmers you could adjust how tight you could pack bales. Tighter the better. Now if I was to personally do it. I would mix fire retardant and anti mold resenting or frame outside and put R40. Bales if I recall right is R60. See I have thought long and hard on how to insulate to the max. Plus a real vapor barrier that's 100%. Most important part of a place other the structure is insulation and vapor barrier. My idea was to do a 2x6 stick built. R20. But they now call it R22. Then vapor barrier it. Then run electrical and plumbing. Then do a 2x4 wall and do R12 and poly again. Then you have R34/36 in walls. Now there no leak to outside for sure. But now have rethinking it. I would do spray foam. Vapor barrier to outside seacan then frame it and spray from it. 2x6 basically would be R 35 flush with 2x6. Only thing is that's like 1800 basically before roof. Roof is R40 you should do minable. But when I did blow in always did R50. Better to over kill. Now in a perfect world and I had the option I would do R40 in walls and R80 in ceiling. But R40 in walls Is 2x12. So add in lumber do to odds are 2x6 you will have to double up. Now ceiling I would do R40 one way as framing is and then 90 degree and other way to cover seems. But if cost isn't a factor then spray foam ceiling too. But that's a pretty penny. Like I always tell anyone is over kill and don't cheap out on what you live in. Better insulation. Saves on heat. Same as windows. Better to go with triple pain then double. Yes cost a crap load more. But in the long run save on heating. Now prices I give is cost only. Not labour. Do to I personally do my own labour or have guys from my crew do it. Then kick them cash under the table and of course few booze and food and a place to crash as they do it. Basically retired from every thing. But don't mind doing odd jobs for friends. Perfure under the table work. But doesn't have to be. I have no issues helping any one off this site. Only 3 things I ask. 1 you supply place to stay. If summer tent works lol. You supply food. Little cash for my time or
something in barter terms that is fair. Most work I do for farmers is barter. Most its food related from garden or animal's they breed. Used to do favor for favor but got burnt to mainly times to do that now. Plus I don't like listening to the old lady bitch at me if I get burnt. But you have my number. Don't be afraid to call and pic my brain. Shit I do it to peppercorn all the time on solar stuff lol. Still waiting on that answer peppercorn lol... little hint batteries and size of watts I need for 3 electric heaters at 1500 watts each. Winter info. For 24 hrs run time lol. Even if I don't do that now. Still would like more then a shit ton of battery. Lol but most places I have power. Odds are never need it. But better to have it if I need to. Working on a faraday cage. Pick up box style camper for my battery bank back up. Yes over kill. But that's me. Either go big or go home.

Shit I do it to peppercorn all the time on solar stuff lol. Still waiting on that answer peppercorn lol... little hint batteries and size of watts I need for 3 electric heaters at 1500 watts each. Winter info. For 24 hrs run time lol. Even if I don't do that now. Still would like more then a shit ton of battery. Lol but most places I have power. Odds are never need it. But better to have it if I need to. Working on a faraday cage. Pick up box style camper for my battery bank back up. Yes over kill. But that's me. Either go big or go home.

I would really try to avoid this...

I must have missed your question..let me give you a quick back of the envelope answer..I will do it for one 1500 watt heater running 24hrs and you can multiply out for 3 or more heaters as you wish.......1500 watt is(x24hrs) 36 000 watts, 36kwhr in total for one day.

you need 2 T105s to make 12 volts at 225 amphrs or 2.7kwhrs(12x225) but because you don't want to use more than half the capacity of a lead acid battery we must use half that value , 112 amphrs or 1.3kwhrs. So 36/1.3 = 28 sets of batteries..sets means x2=56. So to run one 1500 watt heater continuously on for 24 hrs you would need 56 T 105 batteries from memory thats something like 62 pounds each, so 3500 pounds of lead to run one heater. Now you wish to run 3 heaters so that would be 168 batteries. The good news is if you are buying in such quantity you can negotiate very good pricing, maybe 165 per battery so that would cost you about 28 thousand for batteries. Used that hard your batteries will likely be toast in 4 years or less so that 28 thousand will be a reoccurring cost. HO HO HO…

a electric blanket can be 50 to 90 watts...just saying....

Better to over kill then not. I would coat with rubber paint or at least poly.

I also prefer to over-engineer, if it is within reach. If I can make something last longer than me, all the better...

I guess I figured the seacan wall would supply one side of the vapour barrier, hadn't really considered sealing it as well. A layer of poly wouldn't be too expensive, I suppose, but I have to think a coat of rubber paint would run a few kilobux? I've also been pondering a basic wood frame, just enough to support a row or two of bales, take some of the stress off of the lower bales once it's all stacked up. Nothing fancy, just a wide stud wall able to support a couple rows of bales. Again, not entirely certain it is necessary, once the bales are plastered in place, and I certainly don't want to lose an insulating capacity.

It's funny, I've encountered several people who have come up with the "double insulated wall" technique, so that no part of the wall is straight wood through to the exterior. I guess we all know the importance of insulation, now, eh? I wondered if scattering some desiccant in the bale walls, as I built them, might be a good idea. I'm pretty sure I can buy the bales dry, and keep them dry until I stack & seal them, but no bale is ever 100% dry, IIRC. Perhaps embedding a bunch of desiccant would aid in the wall's longevity.

I grabbed a few prices off of kijiji yesterday, calculated the number of bales I'd need re:small VS large, and really, the large bales only cost an extra 25%. They consume much more cubic space, but I have space to spare for this experiment, so not overly concerned about that facet, I guess. The most difficult part for me would be stacking them, as I lack any heavy equipment capable of lifting 1000lb (according to Mr. internet) bales.

I appreciate all the discussion/feedback you've offered, term0shad, I think I have enough information to draw up plans & schemes, maybe try and put together a ballpark cost for the effort, see if the local government bureaucrats have (m)any issues with it. I'll see what I can get away with in Spring.

Hope the new year brings you much prosperity & opportunity, thanks.

.

Did a bit more thinking on the subject of insulating the outside of a seacan, recently, and got to wondering if a foam insulation would also be a reasonable solution? As in, wrap the seacan in foam, cinch it to the seacan, and join the sections of board with, say, Gorilla Tape, paint over it. While not providing the same kind of insulating value as bales, and costing more, it seems like far less work, less resistant to critters, and still providing a good waterproof, insulating barrier on the outside of the seacan.

-shrug- just kinda thinking out loud I guess. Walked into an uninsulated seacan this morning, lit by three CFL bulbs, and noticed that it was much warmer than ambient, has me wondering how little insulation is actually needed, especially once the steel is warmed.

.