My thoughts run to this,
everyone and his dog knows about Provincial parks, they will be overcrowded and rife with strife!

Off the beaten path, as in crown land, if it hard to get to then yes. But, when your months worth of food is gone, no more gas for the generator, what do you do then? There will be no wild animals of any numbers left within 2 months, all the regular yahoos will be out shooting everything that moves, will not conserve and just how many 100k of people with guns do you think our environment will support?

Strategic alliances with farmers are the way to go, but and a big but, most will not even think on that stuff now. So, I am trying to rent a spot on a farm right now, and it is work to do that. Now this is when it is the worst case scenarios, if it is the worst case, full blown all out war, then a depression, if EMP or Coronal Mass Ejection similar to the 1880's or the 1980's that hit Quebec, though on a larger scale, there will be a mass die off of the population.

If the Coronal Mass or EMP hits just right, no electronics. The one that hit in the 1880s was said to cause the Telegraph lines to pop and sizzle, the glass connectors that connect to the poles to shatter. With the reports I have read on the experiments done by the Russians and the US in the 60s - 70s, even generators that were not connected to grids, did not have electronics were inoperable. If you do not have a Faraday Cage, lots of money to have double of everything in the Faraday Cage, it will not be like the 1880s it will be worse! Everything works with electronics and from some of the reports even non electronic vehicles and generators will not work either without major overhauls, this takes time. No food delivery for months, if it hits in Winter, massive die off as the harvest will be in the Fall for most things. Southern US will come out better as they can have 2 harvests whereas the Northern Areas only have 1.

Why worse, because we have lost the knowledge of the people in the 1880s, we do not have the wooden and metal pulley systems that they had, nor the knowledge on how to make them either. The 1880s had a lead up period, we will have lead down period, hence the US, Russia and China building vast subterranean complexes and bunkers, the only way to keep electronics and people fully separated and able to function later on.

How many people do you know even on farms who have the animal pulled machines operable and able to use them. Did you know that on some farms, they used human or Cow/Ox power to pull them? Oxen take about 3 yrs to become big enough and have enough training to be fully utilized for husbandry.

Now this is just the absolute worst case scenario, I am thinking survival rate in some areas to be about 40% in others, perhaps as low as 20%. The 40% will be in secluded areas like Northern Canada, Mountain Valley communities or lake surrounded communities. With those people surviving, only the People with Prepper, Pioneer or Adventurer spirits and some corrupt Government officials will make it. The Human Locusts/Zombie Hordes will clean everything in their path, kill the hold outs, unless you are secluded or very hard to get to. Then they die off, or most of them. No drugs, everyone who is drug dependent dead in about 3-4 months, old people, most dead in 1 month, weak willed dead in 4 months.

It would be nice to sit around a fire and Sing Coombya, all being Cooperative LIKE some think, I just do not think it will turn out that way. If it is only a depression, then it might happen, though there will be a large die off then as well.

Now these are some peoples thoughts, my own included and I have believed this for about 7-9 yrs now, am I ready NO, was it my fault, partially, divorce is a two sided killer of dreams!

So for your sake, my sake and most peoples sake, I really hope it does not come to that, but our way of living needs to change, our thoughts need to change, our priorities need to change, work with Nature not to control or kill off Nature. Power requirements, Oil dependency, Agro Raping of the Earth, Animal Husbandry,covering farmers fields with Mini Monster Mansions, we need to change all of it, or we are doomed.

So cheers and have a nice day hope for the best.

Hi Wilderness

Just a quick note as I am running, but wanted to say that while it takes three to four years for a ox to reach full all day workability, they can be used on a small farm much younger and for shorter periods of time.. Girl was sledding down several hundred pds of feed, water or hay by the age of six months, was hauling hay in by a year and is now helping on the spring duties at a 16 months, while I would certainly not push her, and I watch her closely in regards to heavy or getting tired etc, she went a full mile and half this past week with no issues. While I am using the pigs as plows, I do have the hand drawn tiller for her if I needed to use it in the future. Her current cart can be loaded up to the 1500 pd mark and she has shown to have no issues with it at all.

WildernessReturn you are almost right save one thing. if you plan on bugging out and you wait till the shtf you will be stuck. If an emp hits then you have no transportation and all your gear will have to be left behind. if no emp and it is something different the you will be parked on some highway some place and run out of gas. no rute you plan will be free of traffic. you will have to take a bush route and if you have a trailer or you dont have a good 4x4 then you have no hope.
The most important thing to do if you plan on bugging out is to watch and listen, there will be signs of what is coming you need to see them and react before it gets out of control. i Have 2% of my gear at my home and the rest is at my bug out location i have 2x every part needed for my truck in faraday cages and i am going to put one in that will be big enough to park the truck in.

WildernessReturn is right about hunting sort of, there will not be a hord of guys in the bush, most will not have the amunition and if you do hunt now you have a stock pile of meat in the freezer. Not all hunters can even hunt successfully, you also have to count that in. fishing will be a big part of any diet so dont forget that. keeping your preeps in a way that you can transport them is best in my mind because you WILL have to move especialy if you are with in 2 hours drive of the city. you would have to be 5 mils form james bay to not have to worry about moving. You need to stay portable. learn to survive of what you can find in the bush as it will be a long time till there will be any one farming. you can have all the food in the world stored so it lasted for ever but if you have to move and dont have the means to take it with you then it was a waist of time to prep it in the first place.

Im not saying an EMP will happen but if your not prepared for anything then your not really prepared at all. I also believe that close to 90% of the worlds population would die off if we were hit with an EMP like the one in the 1880s.

The funny part of all this is try to look up the on that hit in the 1880s and you will see how hard it is to fin niformation on it, seems a little strange to me.. This will help http://www.nasa.gov/topics/solarsystem/features/spaceweather_hazard.html

WildernessReturn you are almost right save one thing. if you plan on bugging out and you wait till the shtf you will be stuck. If an emp hits then you have no transportation and all your gear will have to be left behind. if no emp and it is something different the you will be parked on some highway some place and run out of gas. no rute you plan will be free of traffic. you will have to take a bush route

2012 Well not going to turn this into a pissing contest, but, You are almost right as well; I had a bug out location, I could get to due to my geographic location a couple of ways and one of them by Bicycle with a trailer, most of my preps and tools were up there. The Other so called prepper, the owner of the land, decided to start using drugs and booze again, got weird and wingnutty, so now I am looking for another spot. Also the other day, there was a solar flare and it just missed earth they also missed the boat on that one, noticed it when it was only 10 min out so to speak, luckily it wizzed on by close but no EMP.
So you might not get a warning

WildernessReturn is right about hunting sort of, there will not be a hord of guys in the bush, most will not have the amunition and if you do hunt now you have a stock pile of meat in the freezer. Not all hunters can even hunt successfully, you also have to count that in. fishing will be a big part
2012, freezer full for about a week, then unless they smoke it all and prep it some other way, as in dehydration, or canning, that meat will spoil
2012 you are mostly right but there will be all kinds of idiots, gun owners, people who have stolen guns, along with hunters and bush men out there. When the gloves are off, they will hunt along roads, shoot towards houses, hunt with lights, and Shoot when they Hear Movement. Hungry people do dumb things, dumb people do very dumb things. People will get shot, animals on farms, dogs, roof chickens everything that moves will be a target. 1 Million People leaving the GTA, a 100 mile radius will not be safe at all, a 160 mile radius will have lots and lots of early people out there, living off the land shooting and looting

Im not saying an EMP will happen but if your not prepared for anything then your not really prepared at all. I also believe that close to 90% of the worlds population would die off if we were hit with an EMP like the one in the 1880s.
geese gloom and doom, I at least said 20-40% 😮

The funny part of all this is try to look up the on that hit in the 1880s and you will see how hard it is to fin niformation on it, seems a little strange to me.. This will help http://www.nasa.gov/topics/solarsystem/features/spaceweather_hazard.html

Also search by Triunga? spelling and the Carrington effect/emp that will help

no pissing contest needed if im wrong please corect me that way i wont be wrong next time!! 😀

sorry if i came off as a bit of an arse i dont mean to.

if we were cought off guard and an EMP hit then it would take a long time for most to get 160 miles from toronto. my place is further but still i dont think it will be that bad past barrie. it will be a count one month 20k or something like that and every 20k more will die off and give up traveling. maybe..... we are talking about people with familys and children and some newbourns. it will be hard to travel for most and very few have prepared for anything. if we were all prepping then it would be a problem. you have to think what would you do if you had nothing and did not think it would ever happen, would you try to head for the hills or sit at home where you have a roof over your head?

I think that there are way more people unpreppared who would sit around like sheep looking at the pretty lights in the sky, where as most of us (on here) would be jumping in cars and heading to our BOL's. I am pretty sure that many people would just sit around town waiting and waiting, even if the power was gonna take months to come back on. Maybe even longer before they ran off in the woods shooting up everything and killing farm animals. Even with all the people from SW Ontario heading for the hills, I think a couple hours north of Barrie you would be just fine, or better be since thats where I will be lol. Anyhow guess I am just saying most of us on this site will see the early warning signs and will be prepared for it, and when we get to our locations we will be settled in long before the crazies come out hunting. 😛

I agree with mason. I think they will be distracted, and like Katrina, even though they are directly told to leave, they just dont believe it till they see it. Plus most dont want to leave their belongings behind. If it were a quick "bug-out moment" event...then yes, you would have a great chance to leave before anyone else. But my issue is...if its economic based or food shortage based, or ANY reason at all, that takes longer than 24 hours to enact or effect or cause enough people to panic...you may not have the red flag and sirens moment...YOU yourself will probably be sitting there going.."uhh..let's see where this goes, if i feel its getting worse, then we'll leave."

Which puts you in a very weak position...no body wants to jump the gun. I've looked at it up and down, and because I live in my retreat, we can stay here, the only warning signal we're looking for, is the one that tells the rest of our team to hit the road and come to our location. That being said, the only reason I have to leave, is to rendezvous with them and escort them back to the "Haven".

How ever, I am aware that we may be FORCED out of our location due to weather or, for some believes of the NWO, the government and militaries may come through to "collect" and "hoarders" extra supplies. At that point, well..we have the contingency to leave, and we wouldnt need to outrun the masses, chances are that would be several months into SHTF before we would be compromised to the point of evacuating our Haven. Bugging out in itself, I have seen time and time again is just such a dangerous and ill-adventure to partake in if you really can avoid it and stand your ground.

We may have intentions to bug-out to our country-bound locations to be able to grow foods and set up levels of homesteading and security that we may not be able to do in "town".....but I would advise to do that later. If its a long drawn out thing, you wont leave ur home, regardless, but even if its quick and violent, if you can stand your ground and be invisble for 1-3 months (depending on the severity of the event), then you would have no issue hittin' the road and going to you "forever home".

I hope that all makes sense. I'm trying to stay non-apacolyptic and mad-max mindset lol. That's the most open ended, level headed advice I can think of.

Bugging-out = Huge uncertainty and risk
Bugging-in or hunkering down = Minimal risk, with the opportunity at any point to leave if it gets bad.

Really and truly, if we knew what you were bugging-out from/for...we could give you a more precise answer.

Good luck though!!

OH and as far as a park goes, why did you consider that as an option? Why go there, you cant set up a home or grow things...unless you are talking provincial park, which was previously stated, that everyone and their dog knows of it. Eventually you're going to want to go where you can grow. I would suggest middle of nowher, but again, people own property that you may me "squatting" on....that makes you easy food for the three-eyed-hillbillies! LOL... and before i forget, the biggest issue with bugging out is DISTANCE...you cant carry enough food and water on your person to make it several days on foot. You will need vehicles. UNLESS you store your preps up there, but again, if you break down, then what? you still need food n water n other supplies to survive the trip up there.

Iunno...the whole concept seems pretty obvious as to how "impossible" it could become.

In my opinion, the option to bug-out depends very heavy on two elements: 1. TIME & 2. Solid Intelligence. If you have enough time to get from here to there, then bugging out IS a viable option. If you have enough information that something big is going to happen to effect your normal day-to-day living, then bugging out IS an option.

However, if it is lights out in a heartbeat. No warning. No leadtime. No "event" based situation. Then, you are basically s.o.l. Those in coastal locations will have the option of setting sail and heading out to sea and those who live at their retreat will be set, but the majority will be trapped in the urban jungle. Sounds kinda bleak.

No "real", it works in every scenario answers out there. Just do the best you can with the supplies you have and the information you can gather and then make the best decisions for you and your family.

Remember not all bugout scenarios are the end of the world type. Being evacuated because their is a huge wildfire blowing into your retreat may be reason enough to bugout til the fire passes. So, even those who live at their retreat should have a bugout plan and kit. I agree, bugging-in is a better choice than fleeing. But running away may be an option at times.

Gotta cousin outside of Kenora or Timmins you only see at the yearly reunion?? Now is the time to get reacquainted! lol
Food will be the thing that is scarce. Shelter, well, with some creativity and a little luck you can build a decent shelter just about anywhere. People won't flock north or to the wild, they will be too busy awaiting a military rescue. If you have sunlight and water (and not too much is really needed) you can grow lettuce just about anywhere. Lettuce is a miraculous plant! Not the most appealing but you will be eating to survive, gourmet will be a word from the past.

With no power or electronics, you will need decent shoes as well. 🙂 And really decent socks! Just putting that out there. Walking is much better in broken in, decent shoes and not new shoes or flip flops.

I really believe and have believed for years that those who survive will be the ones who planned ahead and hid it or those who forcefully took what they needed to survive. I do not want to be the latter but, I know I have it in me if my babies lives depend on it.
I watched Katrina aftermath and thought #1 why the hell didn't they leave? and #2 ok, you are swimming for this and that to loot, why not swim for higher ground? Why not walk when you can and swim when you can? Why were thousands waiting like sitting ducks? Because they couldn't stray from the herd. Us being preppers already are strayed from the herd. That was also the year I made damn sure my kids could swim! In our BOB everything is in resealable freezer bags and vacpack waterproof bags... just in case. The chances of that happening here are slimmer than New Orleans but, we do not know what the universe has planned for us.
BOL's are great, if you can get to them. Staying put, maybe the best option for the long run.

I was talking with someone over March break about staying put... and how to best secure your home, blocking out light and sound with what you have lying around. Duct tape and cardboard are your friends at that point lol Leave the curtains up, pull them tight but against the window then put cardboard up with nails and seal around the cardboard with plastic and duct tape, this should block out any candle light as well but, on the second floor, leave a couple of windows uncovered for growing what you can inside. It's not ideal but would/could deter people from thinking you are there? A few rolls of heavier plastic and good duct tape wouldn't cost $30 and could be useful for many things.
And for those who have large properties or any property in the country... I admit I am a little jealous as I would LOVE to be able to prep to stay and not have to worry much about leaving. I am working on that dream as I type this out 🙂

IMHO 'Bugging in' in an urban setting would work for temporary power failures or short term disasters but would be suicide in a full scale societal collapse or disruption situation. Gangs and hungry looters would hit every door in the cities in no time. Bugging in at a fully stocked rural/wilderness retreat at least a couple hundred kilometers from the nearest major city would be the only way to go. If you are far enough out then the chances of masses of refugees or looters from the cities reaching you becomes slim. Putting as many kilometers of armed rural folk between you and the major urban centers is a good idea. You might have the odd small group that slip through but nothing like around the cities.

Ideally you want to head to your retreat by vehicle before things get really bad but if there was a true SHTF situation with zero warning and I could not bug out by vehicle but needed to get out of the city I would walk to my retreat. It would be hard but it is doable. I calculated that I would be there in 14 days or so by foot with no snow and have packed my bug out bag contents accordingly. I even plotted several alternative walking routes on a map that would keep me close to water and away from towns and major roads avoiding all others if possible. I have been doing night navigation with a compass for years so I would travel after dark as often as possible if necessary.

That is why I have a bicycle and a home-made cart for it. Move faster, carry more, get ahead of the herd. It worked for some miners going up to the Gold Rushes in both the Yukon and Northern BC, so it will work here. My Dog also has a pack for her and I am building a carting pack and cart for her as well.

Using bikes that way it quicker, even if all you do is load up the bike and push it, make sure it is balanced well and you can put up to 10x the load you can normally carry. WWI and WWII as well as multiple scenarios in the African Continent have seen people do this.

Another thing I am changing is Tents, moving away from the normal new design tents that use Nylon, back to Canvas Tents. Canvas holds the heat better and can be heated quicker as well. In the Sun it also takes longer to warm up, so you will not be soggy by the time you get out of the rack. Cold weather can see the use of liners, even cotton liners will raise the ambient temps by at least 10degs Fahrenheit.

During the last year alone, I have now reached my goal of 3 Canvas Tents, two that will be combined to make a mini home, the third is to be the portable camping tent. Total Cost so far is $50 for all three. One was free, the other two cost $20 and $30 each. Adding in Smoke/Fire rings will cost $40 per ring, plus $40 for the Sewing by a Canvas Shop.

I stopped using Tea lights as well as Kerosene Lamps in the tents. Have switched to making my own Lights and lamps from Veggie Oil and rolled up paper towel (commercial paper towel works better) or the Hemp/Cotton Jute String (so very cheap now).

Safety is an issue, so using the Veggie Oil is great, light it, flame it, then tip it over since it is so fire proof, it puts itself out, none of the other fuels do that.

That is why I have a bicycle and a home-made cart for it. Move faster, carry more, get ahead of the herd. It worked for some miners going up to the Gold Rushes in both the Yukon and Northern BC, so it will work here. My Dog also has a pack for her and I am building a carting pack and cart for her as well.

Using bikes that way it quicker, even if all you do is load up the bike and push it, make sure it is balanced well and you can put up to 10x the load you can normally carry. WWI and WWII as well as multiple scenarios in the African Continent have seen people do this.

Another thing I am changing is Tents, moving away from the normal new design tents that use Nylon, back to Canvas Tents. Canvas holds the heat better and can be heated quicker as well. In the Sun it also takes longer to warm up, so you will not be soggy by the time you get out of the rack. Cold weather can see the use of liners, even cotton liners will raise the ambient temps by at least 10degs Fahrenheit.

During the last year alone, I have now reached my goal of 3 Canvas Tents, two that will be combined to make a mini home, the third is to be the portable camping tent. Total Cost so far is $50 for all three. One was free, the other two cost $20 and $30 each. Adding in Smoke/Fire rings will cost $40 per ring, plus $40 for the Sewing by a Canvas Shop.

I stopped using Tea lights as well as Kerosene Lamps in the tents. Have switched to making my own Lights and lamps from Veggie Oil and rolled up paper towel (commercial paper towel works better) or the Hemp/Cotton Jute String (so very cheap now).

Safety is an issue, so using the Veggie Oil is great, light it, flame it, then tip it over since it is so fire proof, it puts itself out, none of the other fuels do that.

As with a vehicle, if the roads were clogged with refugees and all hell had broken loose you would not get very far pushing or riding a full loaded bike and cart out of a major urban area. Reason being is you would still need to mainly stick to the roads and the roads would be clogged with people who failed to make any bug out preparations of their own. A bike and cart all loaded up nice with supplies would be an obvious target for any desperate mob. On foot you can cut across rough terrain, hop fence lines in fields and move through heavily wooded areas and stay out of sight with relative ease. That's just me though. My goal is to get to my retreat shelter, not bring my retreat shelter with me. In the event of a relatively peaceful urban exodus or you had the luxury of bugging out before the SHTF then yes a bike and cart would be a great.

Canvas tents are superior for longer term survival due to their durability, heat retention and cost however I find them much too bulky and heavy for my bug out gear so I opted for a lightweight 2 man synthetic tent and a green tarp. But then again my goal for a non-vehicle bug out is to be very mobile and to get to my retreat up north by staying away from the hordes on the major roads and any towns and by foot with a pack on my back cutting through woodlands and across rural farmland is the only way to go.

That was just one option, I am used to using my Black Cadillacs as well, though I do like the speed of my Mountain Bike.

Most people seem to be overlooking using a bike, you can cover about 4x + more ground than by hiking it out, as well rest periods although taken about every hour or so, will see you a long way ahead of where you would have been on foot.

Due to forces beyond my control, I do not have a bug out location anymore, am actively looking for another one.