I mentioned this in another thread, but I thought it warrented its own discussion. so rather then hijack the other thread I will post a new one here:
To anyone who believes that the United States will simply sit around and watch itself fall apart and the hands of foreign debt, i believe you are sadly mistaken. It is common knowledge that it is fiscaly impossible for the US to ever pay off their debt in conventional means, as their current interest levels tack on more debt then they can pay off in a year. They have to take out loans to pay off loans. Anyone who has ever made payments on one credit card with another will know what this is like... now imagine doing this in the trillion dollar range, without a job. This is the plight of the united states as we currently speak.
There was however, another nation in history that had to deal with a situation very, VERY, similar to this. Post WW1 Germany. After the official surrender of Germany and the signing of the treaty of versailles, the weimar republic was doomed. Forced to pay out war settlements and national debts that vastly out distanced their ability to pay, germany went into the worst depression the world has ever seen... far more drastic then the victorious United States and her allies. people ate their animals, their shirts, their shoe leather, used wheel barrels full of german currency to heat their homes, because you could not buy a cord of wood. Nation economy grinded to a halt over the following decade, and the greater part of the german country was hardly recognizable from the so called "3rd world countries" of today. The stipulations of the treaty of versailles left germany without any major economy, without any real standing military, and without any hope of recovery. This is what the treaty was designed to do of course, it was to punish the German people for their aggressive expansionism that lead to the first world war in the first place.
Enter Adolf Hitler and the German National Socialist Party (Nazi Party). When the Nazis took power, they were voted in through a landslide democratic vote. Their promise for a new, strong, proud german reich swept the nation and revitalized the idea of "what is meant to be german". one of their main political platforms was called "the 25 point program". here are the 25 points for your reference:
The 25-point Program of the NSDAP
1.We demand the unification of all Germans in the Greater Germany on the basis of the people's right to self-determination.
2.We demand equality of rights for the German people in respect to the other nations; abrogation of the peace treaties of Versailles and St. Germain.
3.We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people, and colonization for our surplus population.
4.Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently no Jew can be a member of the race.
5.Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in Germany only as a guest, and must be under the authority of legislation for foreigners.
6.The right to determine matters concerning administration and law belongs only to the citizen. Therefore we demand that every public office, of any sort whatsoever, whether in the Reich, the county or municipality, be filled only by citizens. We combat the corrupting parliamentary economy, office-holding only according to party inclinations without consideration of character or abilities.
7.We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.
8.Any further immigration of non-citizens is to be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since 2 August 1914, be forced immediately to leave the Reich.
9.All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.
10.The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all. Consequently we demand:
11.Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.
12.In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
13.We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
14.We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
15.We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
16.We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.
17.We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.
18.We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, profiteers and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.
19.We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.
20.The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.
21.The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.
22.We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.
23.We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that: a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race; b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the State to be published. They may not be printed in the German language; c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications, or any influence on them, and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life, and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.
24.We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: The good of the state before the good of the individual.
25.For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.
When brought into power, one of the first things Hitler and the Nazi government did was eradicated the democratic rights of its people by eliminated any government opposition. The people were essentially still allowed to vote... but there was only one party you could vote for. Any threat to their power was quickly and quietly removed.
The second thing they did was completley disolve any hold the treaty of versailles held over them. They cancelled all foreign debt, increased their industrial capacity well beyond the treaties limitations, as well as greaty increased their standing military, nearly 100 fold.
for more information of the economic changes brought on by nazi germanys "25 point plan), you can do some research, but for quick reference here is the wikipedia link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany . i realize that wikipedia is not the best source, but it is fairly reliable in this article. there is far to much for me to get into here.
here is another link that discusses some of the results of their economic plan http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/nazis_and_the_german_economy.htm .
WHATS THE POINT BUGGIE I can hear you all asking after reading this very long post. The point is this my friends... If you think that the united states will simply sit idle and let their economy collapse... you are mistaken. There are too many options that they could take to elliminate this problem. Of course none of them will be easy, and most of them will end in war of some kind (countries wont take kindly to the erradication of debt that should be money in their pockets). We have all seen how powerful the "american mentality" can be. They are a proud and resiliant people, and I think that it is obvious that the vast majority of them do not see a problem on the horizon. But do not be fooled, there is a reckoning coming for the united states and the world... and after a few years of weimar republic style depression, I think the conditions will be just right for an extreme government to take power and reverse the conditions with the flick of a switch. It has been done before, and msot likley will happen again. I dont believe that they will follow the german "25 point plan" of course... they went to war with germany over that plan. However it is unrealistic to believe that they have not prepared for the coming collapse, just as we all have been. The US government is, in my opinion... the biggest prepper of them all. An to think that they do not have some sort of plan for such an obvious problem that has been cooking for the last 30 years is a huge oversight.
I believe that what we must prepare for is the transition period. WHen their economy crumbles, and the wheels begin to turn for their own revolution, the world will be greatly effected. The current economic collapse in greece for example, can be traced back to war reperations that Weimar germany was supposed to pay the country of greece in the years following WW1 that were never completed. Every thing is attached, so prepare yourselves for anything. I do not have a crystal ball, and cannot see the outcome down the road... but I can smell the smoke, and so can you. The government has a plan, and if they dont... someone else will step up with a plan of their own. It may be a good one, or it may be a bad one, but it will be something that changes the world for centuries to come.
Think about what I have said here, and please post your comments. I would love to start a discussion on this! sorry for the ridiculously long post.
See you all after.
German actually paid its last bit of WW1 reparations/debt in 2010 - almost 100 years late.
As for the rest, lots to consider in the future. Like they say, history never repeats itself, but it often rhymes.
One other thing the Nazi's in Germany did, and had to do before they could rule completely was disarm the populace with gun control measures. Actually, just about every major genocide, if not all of them, has been preceded by the government committing the genocide placing limitations on the citizenry owning firearms (gun control).
http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/deathgc.htm#chart
FWIW, governments have murdered far, far more people in the last 100 years than your everyday common individual murderers have. Just my humble opinion, of course.
Very good points salix. Yes the nazis did undertake an extensive gun grab during their reign. It started with a "registration", and then extensive gun control laws that made it almost impossible to own anything that wasn't designated as hunting specific. Eventually these programs were deemed to costly and largly not as effected as they wanted, so they started having police simply go door to door and round up any weapons at all. First it was done quietly, and eventually in broad daylight. With the "for the good of the country" mentality and the fear of the gestapo (government police agency) most arms were given over freely and ended up in military service. Anyone who opposed was imprisoned or shipped to concentration camps as political enemies (guantanamo bay anyone?)
Asside from their inherant evil policies towards minoritys, mainly the jewish people. Nazi germany was in fact elected into office, and was born out of necessity BY ITS OWN PEOPLE. It just goes to show that when times are tough, people will be willing to accept some things to improve their own natural standing within a nation.
For example (please don't look into this the wrong way, its just a scenario):
Imagine if you will, we fast forward time 2 years. The US economy as we know it has collapsed. There is only food for the elite, gas for no one, civil works are in complete disrepair, and unemployment rate has sky rocketed to over 60%. A new government has taken the stage with a platform similar to nazi germany, only substitute the jewish people for "illigal immigrants" who in the eyes of the new government are an inferior group of people who have sucked the life out of the nation and should be treated harshly, forced to work to death as slaves, and eventually be eliminated. Their argument is so convincing that the people are completley indoctrinated with this idea right from birth. In return for accepting this ideology, the people of the US will experience a complete turnaround in their wellbeing, an improved economy, and a vastly superior social standing. Life will be good for them, only if they turn a blind eye to the dark ideologies. But hey, it won't effect them right?
I'm not saying that will unfold... All I'm saying is that something like that could happen. The economic turmoil that is on the horizon will open doors for all sorts of outcomes. I don't believe that the current US powers at be have any designs on an extremist policy based on hate and supremacy... But you never know what kind of plans they could have in the wings. Not trying to be a fear monger either. These are just some observations I have about things.
See you all after.
Yet another example of peoples need for leadership no matter what. Governments kill people.
I wonder what the world would look like without central banks/countries/government etc. Why cant we just exist rather than have nationalism. My kid will never serve a day in any government military since I believe all war is political/financial and then sold as a freedom thing to the masses. If there were a draft then I would break his leg (edit: or something less major) since that is better than a bullet serving some politician. The problem is that the leadership dictates where our men and women die without putting any of their own skin in the game. Generals used to have the balls to fight along side the men and now they sit in ivory towers using the blood of the little people as pawns in a game.
Rant over!
Here is a description in wikipedia of a decade in our history:
* Economically, the era saw .... unprecedented industrial growth, accelerated consumer demand and aspirations, and significant changes in lifestyle and culture. The media focused on celebrities, especially sports heroes and movie stars;
* The spirit of <this period> was marked by a general feeling of discontinuity associated with modernity and a break with traditions. Everything seemed to be feasible through modern technology. New technologies ... proliferated 'modernity' to a large part of the population. Formal decorative frills were shed in favor of practicality in both daily life and architecture.
* was an era of great economic growth and widespread prosperity driven by government growth policies, a boom in construction, and the rapid growth of consumer goods;
* was a decade of increased consumer spending and economic growth fed by supply side economic policy.
* All three <administrations> took the conservative position of forging a close relationship between those in government and big business.
* US administrations> managerial approach sustained economic growth throughout most of the decade. However, the overconfidence of these years contributed to the speculative bubble that sparked the stock market crash
* Tolerance toward other groups: In urban areas, minorities were treated with more equality than they had been accustomed to previously.
* Homosexuality became much more visible and somewhat more acceptable.
If it sounds familiar and you think it's describing the first decade of this century it's because they are quite similar. But it's actually a description of the "Roaring Twenties - a term sometimes used to refer to the 1920s, characterizing the era's distinctive cultural edge in most of the world's major cities for a period of sustained economic prosperity."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roaring_Twenties#End_of_the_Roaring_Twenties
This isn't just in US but in Europe also. Three years after these good times ended with the Great Depression Hitler got to power and the first concentration camps in Germany were established.
Talking about how history rhymes. I find this subject fascinating and worth studying. Yes, I think history rhymes at different scales throughout the centuries. This pattern happened everytime after the first governments appeared. The rise and fall of the roman empire shows striking similarities with many empires before and after them. It's like a big time loop (like the one in Ground Hog day movie) that we can't pull ourselves from and we are condemned to relive it on and on. I wonder what it would happen if at some point we'll do something different and we'll break the loop.
I don't think that humanity will be able to do something different this time though so that's one of the reasons I'm a prepper. And this is one scenario in my list. Far from being well defined since it's hard to say what it will happen or when. It might have already started or it might be years from now but a decline will come. What goes up must come down and all civilizations came to an end eventually and I don't see any reason why the western civilization will make an exception.
Albertaprepper...
That documentary series was actually what got me thinking about this post in the first place. I found it eerie how similar the situations were, and to me it was like looking into the future. Again, not saying that the us will turn into nazi germany... But I find it ridiculous to think that the country will collapse do to something like a little "economic crash".
If there is one thing that history has shown us, its that those in power will go to extreme measures to remain in power. It also shows that when the cards are down, the masses WILL allow these extreme measures to unfold, as long as it benifets them more than hurts them. Of course, the argument could be made that the german people were ignorant towards what was actually going on to the jewish people... But it could also be said that they simply did not care as they had been indoctrinated with the mind set. The proposed actions of hatred were right there in their 25 point program. It was talked about at rallys and at debates, and was one of the deciding factors that gave the nazi party an overwhelming victory. They turned the jewish and other minority people into the "them", and the german arian people into the "we"... Very similar to the US in regards to the arab world. Its not our fault... Its those damn terrorists. We had to spend all that money on military because of "them". We had to strip civil rights away from civilians because of "them". Its not our fault... Its theirs. Propeganda is a powerful thing, especially to a largly uneducated population (sound like a country we know? Sorry us... Not picking on you... But its common knowledge that the government has been "dumbing down" your education system for decades) people who don't think are sheep, and can be herded as such.
If there is one thing I know for sure, its that if we don't learn from history channel... We are doomed to repeat history channel
See you all after.
Harry Turtledove writes sci-fi, alternative histories. The series called "the great war" is a story in which the South wins the Civil War. During WWI, this results in a powerful USA allied with Germany up against the Confederacy allied with Britain (Canada) and France.
Long story short, very good read through the First World War and then the story continues between the wars with the rise of an extremist political party in the Confederacy. It then goes into the second world war.
What was interesting is that the 'nazi' party rose up out of the war-torn and bankrupt confederacy in the south. It's an interesting read on how an extremist party could manipulate elections, the supreme court and the peoples' hearts when they are desperately poor and ill-educated(kept in the dark). This story could easily be rewritten for today and what many of you have been describing as on its way in our near future.
If anyone has time for fluff reading anymore that is 😳
Dang!
I love fluff SF! I read SF and fantasy at a ratio of at least 10 to 1. I just finished Kurt Vonnegut's "Slaughterhouse 5" and am therefore good for another 10 recreational reads. 🙂 I've got a copy of "Cat's Cradle" however and may well take it next.
Cheers,
Antsy
Needs must when the devil drives.
While Wikipedia might be close on many topics touched they were inaccurate on a few as well. Concerning buying wood with weimarks, wood was available but the caloric value of wood cost more than you could get from burning the weimarks needed to buy wood. Hitlers rise to power was based on getting Germans out of a virtual slavery system and giving their country back to them. I could get into a lot more detail but could also probably charged with hate crimes for repeating what I was told by my Mother born in Germany in 1919. My Mother was neither a Nazi nor racist so I'll believe her version over the politically correct stories we are being told. On a side note, I was inter-racially married until my wife passed away and my family loved my wife even more than most blood relatives.
Presently the US gov views preppers as borderline terrorists (at best) with the opinion of 'err on the side of caution' when dealing with preppers, really! http://www.local15tv.com/news/local/story/Gulfport-Man-Stranded-by-No-Fly-List-Leaves-Hawaii/oPctM8LfX0aJpwy2Q1WK6Q.cspx As of about 1 month ago the number of US citizens who were concerned about the economy and government was totally dismal (slightly below 2% if memory serves). Most were too busy keeping up with 'American Idol' and Survivor' to pay attention to the real life news. Obama's record of slipping laws that grant the President of the USA powers that over ride the US constitution at time most likely to not be reported (New Years Eve for example) has been steadily increasing and bolder.
Obama told the press that he doesn't take orders from congress, but from the United Nations and NATO. Just for fun Google ' US map under agenda 21 ' if you want to see what's in store.
With a huge amount of Canadian exports going to the USA, when (not if!) the US economy collapses the Canadian economy is going to take a huge hit as well.
Final food for thought.... Thinking about laws passed in the last few decades, how many take rights and privileges away from us compared to how many enshrine rights and privileges? Just mull that over for a while and I think you will have to agree that it's very most likely that things will get a whole lot worse before they start getting a little bit better.
Than= I’d rather be rich than poor.
Then= I first became hungry then I ate.
There = She is there now.
Their = They have their things.
They're = They're going to the mall.
To = They came to the house.
Too = That's too bad.
I posted a thread titled, "G20 report released" but have no idea how to link threads like others do.
It goes into great detail how the police illegally detained demonstrators who were trying to reach the g20 meetings in Toronto, including people who had not yet gone to the demonstrations and those who were in the 'approved zones'. It was a total abuse of power but most sheeple blamed the demonstrators for damaging stores etc.
There are links to the 5th Estate documentary and it is very disturbing how the police were deployed by Harperoony so that he would not be embarrassed in front of world leaders basically.
For those who think a police state can't happen in Canada...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2010/12/07/ombudsman-g20-security-rule-report856.html
(I had to switch news stories from the original post I made as its now behind a paywall)
For those who don't know the background:
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/content/2011/02 ... -home.html
All empires must fall. Egyptian. Greek. Roman. British. and in the not too distant future the American empire. But for every empire that falls another rises from the ashes. So, the Chinese Empire will once again be the force to reckon with. The Chinese own a lot of the American debt, so, I believe it will be Chinese who chose when it is necessary for the American empire to fall. The fall of the eagle and the rise of the dragon, if you will.
No one can say we live in boring times, mores the pity.
Mountainman.
Post ww2 japan and germany were able to rebuild rather quickly after their defeat due to post war rebuilding efforts by the victorious allies. Germany was a peculiar case because after the war it was carved up like a thanksgiving turkey by the allies, with the west being controllled byt various countries including the US, and the east being retained by the soviet union. We all know the story of how that strategy worked out for the world.
Japan however is an interesting story because it was the first time that the western powers truely sought out to rebuild a nation as quickly as possible. The empire of japan was quickly replaced by a democratic society with several ties to their past (very similar in how the british commonwealth now operates, with the old monarch as more or less a figure head). Without the aid of the allies, japan would not have recovered as quickly and as prominantly as they did. This strategy became the standard format for every US and UN war down the road. Attack, defeat, rebuild, reform (not that it ever worked out again).
See you all after.
