Laser Colour Benefits

Red: Aim point in lowlight conditions.
Green: Bright aim point in daylight and lowlight conditions.
Blue: Very bright aim point in daylight and lowlight condition. Extended battery time). Not as susceptible to cold temperatures.

Laser Colour Drawbacks

Red: Operational difficulty in daylight conditions.
Green: Operational difficulty in colder conditions. Visible beam trace if particulates are present in the air.
Blue: Visible beam trace if particulates are present in the air.

General Benefits

From a Shooter's perspective a Laser can be beneficial to control the tracking of angular deviation in handguns when used by inexperienced shooters.

Laser designed targets may also offset the cost of training using real ammunition.

General Drawbacks

The bullet only goes where the laser goes when the laser is properly zeroed at XYZ distance, the target is XYZ distance away, and all human and environmental error is eliminated (shooting indoors under perfect conditions). Because of this, lasers aren't used by any tactical team I'm aware of outside of indoor training scenarios.

The addition of a laser sight may restrict the style/type of holster that you can use.

While lasers may assist the shooter in some situations a laser will not assist in positive target identification (PTI). PTI is something that is totally paramount for both defensive and offensive shooting scenarios. Tactical members usually opt for a light on their handguns for this reason.

Laser application on automatic weapons or long guns isn't practical for tactical applications (outside of Hollywood)...

Wayne,

What are your thoughts on lasers for handguns in self defense at home? You'd think it could offer some assistance when shooting behind cover/concealment or weak-hand?

I've seen Crimson Trace lasers where the advantage being that it requires no extra manipulation and there is no need to change holsters.

These may be a positive advantage for some shooters at short distance. They offer an off-hand advantage to shooters in low-light situations in-that they require a small sight target. Where the dot indicates is where the bullet will hit at short range. In a home invasion situation (for example) target identification may be less important. In a law enforcement situation however, this is of paramount importance as you may not have a way of distinguishing the good guys from the bad guys in 1/3 of a second.

A tactical team operates within the law. A survival situation may be outside any restraints. If you kill the wrong person, at least you live to tell the tale. My experience has required much more restraint and subsequently a higher threshold. A dot on the target is insufficient. If you want to clear a room, you use a grenade... 🙂

As Wayne mentioned, average green lasers do not work well in cold temps. Even plus 3C I have had issues. Work fine at first and then zip.

Mil units are ok but one can’t obtain them and if you could they are expensive

WAyne: you mention a dot as being insufficient. Insufficient for what? I know one needs to be ready willing and able to pull the trigger, but if there’s one or more adversaries and your in a standoff situation, do you not agree that the physiological effect of a person being lit up is a deterrent? A person may think you won’t hit them, but if they see a dot on the center of their chest and you are not showing any signs of weakness, I think that is an added plus and may get them to back off or comply. Your Thoughts?

Hi Clarence,

I'd frown upon the practice of looking at yourself in a tactical situation. Personally, I'm too consumed with looking for threats and being aware of my team members, so friendlies don't get shot.

We've all seen movies in Hollywood where the bad guy's chest is lit up with tiny dots and he drops his weapon. Like I said Hollywood. Any tactical team is only used as a last resort. When given a green light, the mission is to eliminate all threats without hesitation. Assaulters don't place beams of light on a person hoping that they will see it, recognise the hopelessness of their situation and drop their weapon. The Perp drops his weapon because he's been killed. If he isn't, the Shooter screwed-up. In a Tactical situation "Drop your gun or I'll shoot" is for the cameras and an audience.

If I saw a laser light, I'd take aim at it's source (beware of laser trace). What I'm afraid of is what I can't see. If I can see it, it can be engaged.

My recommendation is that no one touch a firearm unless they genuinely believe that their life or the life of another is in danger. If so, the intention is to eliminate the threat. If you reach for a firearm, you are preparing to kill another human being. Hesitation will get you or a loved one killed.

Police will pull a weapon, if the situation is unknown and a threat to personal safety is probable. When and when not to shoot is part of the training. Unfortunately, this is training which the average Prepper hasn't received.

The second part of this, is that people attempting to break into your home likely don't know that the home is occupied. You should always endeavor to find a way to indicate that it is. If they're trying to break in and are aware that you're home, they likely are willing to use violence. Predetermination of intent is critical. I don't know about you, but I really don't want to shoot anyone looking to feed their children by breaking into what they believe is an abandoned house...

Wayne. Not sure what happened to my response to your last post but it’s not here.

Psyops is a very powerful tool and is used extensively. Hollywood and all the subliminal messages ( no I am not a tin foil hat type) people have been exposed to since birth can and does trigger reactions. An instructor from quantico once told me the sound of a pump shotguns action being worked sends a definite message. People have watched enough tv and movies to all know it’s sound. Same with lasers.

I like to combine both and will use whatever works that I have at my disposal. Untrained individuals useing iron sights with one eye closed will not be as situational aware as other more experienced types. If they had a tool that permits them to keep both eyes open while shaking with nerves and know that they are on target, that will help them. In addition to helping them, I believe it will also send a message to the bad guy. if it doesn’t, then the accountant will have to do what he is ready willing and able to do and that’s it. All one can do is recommend they be as prepared as possible and use what tricks they can to maybe tilt things in their favor. Pretending to be “tacti-cool “ is not what I am suggesting, as that only provides a false sense of confidence. But is is a tool that may “ help”.

A hostage negotiator, swat team, a snatch and grab op, undercover, police officer, soldier... all use what they have or are mandated to execute on.

I understand that certain trade craft tools or tactics take a long time to acquire and within strict limits, I hope to discuss some of them on this forum. All open source.

So, if the average civilian and that includes even low end criminals is attempting to liberate me from stuff or is a potential risk to my safety, I will use whatever works. People remember the scenes in movies where they get lit up and then are double tapped. If that light gets them to back off then maybe that’s what the average person would be happy with. I fully understand that if your mission is to terminate someone you execute that task without prejudice. If however, you are joe Q accountant, you may not be mentally prepared to do that right away. If there are two or more perps, you pick the leader and focus on him. Once he decides it’s in his interest to back off, his chump friends will likely follow. Not sayin that they won’t return, but assuming one is not ready to pull the trigger at that moment, they may be better tactically or mentally prepared for when and if they do return.

Clarence,

Every situation must be assessed on its own merits. But if I was an assaulter and you clacked a shotgun; you've just given me much needed intelligence:

1. If I didn't know exactly where you were; you just told me.
2. You are armed with a loaded shotgun; you are now a threat which needs to be eliminated.
3. The effective range of your weapon is short with limited penetration ability.
4. You have one shell less in the weapon than if you had cleared it for action earlier.
5. You were unprepared 10 seconds ago (or now your weapon has one less shell because one was ejected).
6. If you believe that this is going to intimidate me, you may believe you have the upper hand.

On the other-hand:

1. You are unaware of what weapons I may have and their capability.
2. You may be unaware of my location and tactical advantage.

Your actions successfully communicated the threat you intended. Tipping your hand before you know if a threat exists and if it does, what that threat amounts to wouldn't be my choice of action.

Changing hats for a moment... If it was my desire to attack your location, I would do a recon first. I might come up to the door, listen to the clack of the shotgun or just watch the lights on my chest. Ask if you had a meal and then leave. I would have taken note of numbers, weapons, types of locks, cameras, dogs, physical structures, approach, etc. At my leisure, I could eliminate the occupants from a distance and remain unseen.

Personally, I don't foresee a remake of the battle at the O.K. Coral, where people are clacking shotguns and using laser scopes to scare one another. If it came down to it, this would be an improbable strategy. Anyone who knew what they were doing, that decided to take-out your location would just do so. The advantage in every case goes to the assaulter. Manning a defensive position in today's age is foolhardy in my opinion.

Wayne. Lots to unpack here. For one, 12 gauge is not my first choice for home defence. Also everything being discussed here about loaded firearms etc is all make believe. All laws will be respected and everyone’s human rights will be respected. Bad guys will not be shot but given milk and cookies with a warm hand in friendship.

1 let’s say you broke into my house and I confront you and you are 12 feet away.
2. Yes I am a threat and glad you got the message. Assuming you are armed, and make an offensive move and feel my life is in danger, i fire. If unarmed and I know there are no others, I then make executive decision on what to do with you.
3 12 gauge buckshot at 12 feet is effective and your down.
4 in an emergency situation, a weapon should be loaded to max and spare rounds readily available. No different than bad guy.
5 if I did have to load a round, you are correct, I have one less in the tube. not how I would operate but I am useing average citizen as examples here.
6. I wouldn’t and never count on the perp being intimidated. If it works, fine, if not and he make threatening move, he’s dead.

1.1 true. Until I see what you have or get a feel from your tactics and on how your movements could translate into what weaponry you may have, I am in the dark. Just like sizing up anyone’s movements, eye contact, how and what clothing is worn, muscle structure, voice, response to questions. You need to try and get a feel of your opponent.
2.2. Typically, I wouldn’t need to chamber a round in the dark and expose myself because it would already be chambered and I would make every effort to remain concealed until I know how many of you there are, locations and weaponry. But assuming that I needed to charge a weapon, I wouldn’t stand up and say hi. I would try and position myself so you would have to expose yourself to try and see me. Would also move away from where I was when I chambered a round so perp, if an amateur would move so they could shoot at old location.

Agree about need for good recon. It’s something people should learn how to do and not be detected, or in your test, ask for food and leave, appear mentally confused, lost....Now, an awake person would watch your eye and head movements, ask questions and be ready for your possible return hours to day or even weeks later. In disaster situation, I would expect you to make your move around 02:00 range or when I left the house to gather wood the next day. one must treat everyone as a potential threat. If not directly, but also from what they tell others, even if in an innocent conversation. Lesson for people is to never let a person into home, see or verbally reveal as little as possible / opsec

I can only speak for myself and I know you have a solid background in tactical maneuvers etc, so yes, you, me and many others know how to operate in this darker world and would have no difficulty liberating people from their food etc. sadly, many watch to much zombie type scenarios and think because they wear camouflage and shoot five rounds a year warming up for deer season, they are bad ass operators. Due to their slimy skill sets, A half decent criminal will defeat the majority of these folks and take their weapons. Due their usual sloppy behavior, they won’t clean it properly or load the clip properly and hopefully it jams on them when they pop over to the next place.

I don’t know why you say manning a defensive position in this age as foolhardy.? Almost everything we tend to discuss on these boards ,revolves around some very large disaster and survival conditions that would test the best of us. As we are not talking about a tiddlywink three day power outage in one city, but complete breakdown in what we call civilized life. I see a solid well stocked home, with land for food, with well laid out perimeter security and like minded folks as part of your team as being ones best option. As food will disappear in days to weeks, you will need to hunker down, 24/7 guard type duty, hot at all times and continually vigilant. After a few weeks of no food, there would be fewer bad guys but those still around will have honed their predatory skills. Hopefully, your team has had encounters as well and able to outlast bravo team

These are great discussions and I try and keep it as real as I can. I may not always put it down in writing the way I wish but I try. I have worked with average civilians as well as many specialists with diverse and very terminal skill sets. I know the tacti-cool types, good hearted but completely unprepared people as well as criminals from street slug to really bad people with skill sets like ours
Cheers.

Ok Clarence, lets suppose....

In medieval times, Castles were sometimes successful against attack. This was until the enemy learned to put down the spear and pick-up a shovel to undermine the foundation.

After WW1, the tactical map changed. Since then, not one fortification has been held successfully against attack. A fortification's success is in its ability to delay the enemy. That's it.

In the situation you described:
1. If it was clear that you and your team wished to assault my family home, I'd offer to leave.
2. I would gain as much information that I could about your team and equipment.
3. Success; my family is alive and without injury (I don't want them in a gunfight).
4. I secure my war bag at night, from a location on my property. Now I'm the aggressor.
5. You would be eliminated one by one at distance. You wouldn't even hear the shot.
6. I clean up the mess and my family returns.

Your position would be fixed. Your weapons would be useless and I would have the advantage of surprise. Why would I want to duke it out with shotguns, handguns and rifles, knives? A guy could get hurt that way...

I think the day of defending the homestead from circling Indians is a thing of the past. A Prepper's advantage is in remoteness, keeping a low profile and appearing as needy as others. Large stashes of food and supplies should be stored out-of-sight.

Opposite to you, my home isn't a fortress with bars, cameras and dogs. Nothing whatsoever to indicate wealth. It will be these fortresses that will be the target of looters and I'm thankful for them...

Survival is about adapting. The key lies in expectation. I don't expect to live then, like I do now. Using things for a purpose for which they weren't designed will be the norm.

Keeping power to my security cameras is not a priority. Prepping to me is largely an attitude. I've survived on bugs, frogs and snakes. If required, I'm willing to live in a changed world and return to the earth.

Unlike you, I'd be happy to invite a group of potential looters into my home to share a cup of tea. One tea bag for every 10 cups (we have 3 bags left). Hell, lets use a fresh one; we have company! BTW Clarence, do you have any extra food?

The poor have nothing to fear from Robbers...

Good morning Wayne. People are going to start thinking we have a love hate relationship going on here. We should meet one day so we can better understand each other, love learning new tactics and tricks.

I love your approach on pretending to be defeated and leave with head hung low!

There’s much truth in what you say about not wishing to stand out. And your tactic of being humble, poor folk, defeated or just trying to get by like the bad guys is a good one. That takes a very high level of training or experience to pull off and I believe asking to much for most people to pull off. If you have family members, they will all have to be practiced pros in carrying it off. Not an easy thing for a 10 year old to do!

As this forum consists of folks in apartments to a cabin in a northern bush area and with I am guessing an equally wide range in skill sets, it’s important that one not suggest tactics that could lead to false sense of profeicincy and have backfire on them. A

A remote location, by its very nature will have less human interaction. Less people, less shelter for them, neighbours who know everyone, city people will not be comfortable or even know how to move through thick brush, swamps etc. so city perp will feed off other city folks. Bush survivors will need to contend with the local bad apples who do know bushcraft. There’s less of them, but they have skills from hunting or as most soldiers come from rural background, they will be familiar with even basic skills.

Keeping a low profile is one tool and one I would recommend. You mentioned cameras as being a give away.. there are two types, one is overt/ placed so people can see that they are under surveillance and ones that are covert. I have an extensive background in covert cams and have had fantastic results. So for the average bad guy and I dare say many pros, I could place a camera in areas that a person scoping out my home would never see it. If your eyes can pick out a 1/8 inch black dot in a tree trunk or 15 feet up in a fork of a tree limb, you have some mighty fine eyes.! Now if you have thermal scope, you might be very lucky and see heat signature but I wouldn’t bet my life on it. ( Speaking of thermal. I highly recommend a hand held unit by flir. Day or night, you will be detected skulking about in the Bush. I know, there are counter measures but for most folks it will work just fine. They are so effective, they are for counter terrorist efforts, a controlled export item).

Then there are pressure plates on trails that people other then you or me would use, buried cables that detect anything going over or under them.... do they cost money, yes but you can deploy this technology around your suburban home or remote location. So if serious about getting a heads up on a person approaching your home from over two thousand....feet away, it can be done! There are other electronic counter measures to detect well concealed cameras but we won’t go there on this forum. So billy bob will never have a clue he is being watched while scoping out my home from 20 feet in the Bush or two thousand feet away! . To be truly effective, all this technology is deployed in very covert fashion and one retains their look of not standing out. It’s an art form but with professional advice is achievable and can make a very nice force multiplier.

You know what you are doing and come at this far differently than some untrained putz will. I wouldn’t want you coming at me!

I do not agree with your fortress statement. Yes, if not supported by outside support, or the ability to outlast the enemy, you will eventually collapse. Thus the need to have developed a local and mutually helpful network. Where possible, a discrete tunnel out of your home could be helpfull. Useing your tactic of leaving home to bad guys and then hitting them from pre prepared locations from outside avoids the initial risk of contact with them.

I like your tactic but that requires everyone to have the skills to pull off the meek and humble game and for bad guys to simply not care and take you out but keep loved ones as their new friends. Bad guys can sometimes be conned but not always. Which then makes us revert back to good perimeter security. Assuming you get a heads up and am not surprised, you then get to decide whether to take them out before being forced to playi being just another suffering soul.

I agree that each individual's plan is dependent upon the current situation, what resources they have available, health, training and experience. Having worked in a number of undercover assignments in my career, I can attest to the fact that most 'bad guys' don't want to hurt members of the public for no reason. In-fact they have a tendency to protect women and children. For anyone doubting this, just look at what inmates in prison will do (if given a chance) to those who are convicted of rape or child-related offences...

Not much convincing would be required. If you came into my home you could search the house and find only what is normally found in the average kitchen. You would be hard pressed to find my supplies. No one would waste time looking very closely... Better security than numerous locks and bars.

Any obvious signs of wealth should be discouraged. Keeping a small footprint is your greatest defensive measure.

I was serious about the advantages of offensive tactics and the weakness of a defensive position. From a practical standpoint (from my perspective), I don't want to have a lot of hidden cameras and security devices available. If I have an occasion to leave the house to the Perps, I don't want to leave them technology that could make my job more difficult on my return. It works both ways. What you have can be used against you.

My training extends to making and defusing explosive devices traps and trip-wires. Tactical operators must be able to bypass devices or defuse them. So these devices could be used in an assault (securing an escape route for example). Of course I experience the negative of this training every time I fly outside of Canada... 🙁

Suffice it to say, that there is more than one way to skin a cat. A situation where someone has elected to huddle with others has its own advantages and disadvantages. My preference is to only group with close friends and family.

Anyway Clarence, I enjoyed the discussion. Have a good day!