Buggie, not to be rude but I think that a lot of the sand bags ballistic stopping power has to do with the sand having a higher density than loam or even clay. I would also be inclined to think that the angular grains of sand would provide more friction on the bullet than loam would. Still, something would be better than nothing and that is for certain.
I will store the bags indoors and figure out roughly how many I would need. 2000 is a lot of sand bags. I'm thinking more along the lines of 200 or maybe 250 to have a few extras.
Than= I’d rather be rich than poor.
Then= I first became hungry then I ate.
There = She is there now.
Their = They have their things.
They're = They're going to the mall.
To = They came to the house.
Too = That's too bad.
Here's my controversial post, just because I couldn't not say something.
Just for kicks and giggles I should start placing sandbags around my home...unsure how long it'll take someone to come take me away...cmon ppl, sandbags around your home?...for how long does this look ridiculous without living beside a flood prone river?
Planning and prepping is food storage, preparedness, and life skills as well as learning long term mental preperation, not going nuts overboard...what is the point of this? to look absolutely bat sh*t crazy to every neighbor and friend that you know...forget about having sane convo's with potential friends, with the explanation.
Sure if it happens tomorrow, you win, but if it never happens or doesn't for 20 years, you like like a life looney. Prepare in your own way, without drawing attention...sandbags around your house for 20 years looks a little suspect I would think.
Sandbags. really???? I worry about some of you that think this is viable...military or any rounds penetrating your house? if this happens, you are most likely dead...sorry, but it's a bit silly!
Plan for preparedness, not for WW3, if that happens, you probably can't do it alone, and definately not in your home..this idea is totally assinine to me. Some of the Rambo types that think you will survive in this situation are seriously confused...just my humble opinion.
but of course, I have had a few bottles of wine with non prepper friends, and could could be totally off base...prepping should be an individual, low key item...drawing attention is counterproductive.
Take care,
OffThePath
Some good stuff here, some.... more questionable. Bugging in, IMHO, is only feasible in an urban setting for a limited time, and dependent on the scenario. Natural disaster, power outage, etc. can be weathered out, but if the poop is still flying after a couple weeks, it is time to leave. Why? Let me explain.
If things are really falling apart, urban areas will be where the great majority of people are going to go. They will buy, trade and barter until supplies look shaky (trust me, this will take less than a week), then they will start looting and scavenging. Many will probably still be thinking that the government will ride in and save the day. They may be right, but let's assume not.
Any place or dwelling that looks untouched or even to be doing well will become a target. Resisting the first few stragglers or groups will only make you a bigger target. You and your family cannot hope to win in a siege scenario; you won't have the numbers.
While all this is going on, basic utilities will likely have stopped. No running water. Sewers probably backing up without the treatment plants running. No garbage collection. Not to mention the possibility of the dead and wounded. Vermin and disease will start taking a firm grip inside of a month. This is not where you want to be. Anything within 20 miles of 'civilization' as we know it, is not where you want to be.
If you're serious about survival, you need a realistic 'cut-off' timeframe to cut bait and get out to someplace safer.
For anyone who hasn't seen it, I recommend the BBC television series "Survivors". More realistic than we're used to for tv, and a pretty good series.
I'm with Off the Path on this one. If you REALLY want to prepare to bug-in for when (not if) the shit hits the fan, put your money into an RRSP for WHEN you can't or don't want to work any longer. Getting old is the shit that hits all of our fans. This way no one will come along and take your home away from you for not having taken care of the most likely scenario first (death and taxes).
Do you have any idea what a 10 cubic yard pile of sand looks like? Hint: it will take more than one of those bug trucks from Burnco to deliver.
Antsy
Needs must when the devil drives.
Good discussion. I agree with OffThePath who is definitely a voice of reason. I also agree with NortherCX if the breakdown is widespread and lasts for months. The question I have in this case is where do most people get out to "someplace safer" without becoming a refugee?
BTR,
I am game I will play this what if game.
I am guessing most have not lived in a sandbag structure. I say this because all comments refer to a single row of sandbags. I agree better than nothing. Most sandbag structures are a minimum of three layers. Why? So, you can alternate the direction of your sandbags to make a stronger structure. Of all fill, clay is the least protective.
As for a pallet of 2,000 of empty sandbags, again a good start. 10,000 would be better. IF, they are the new woven poly type sandbags, keep 'em in a dry, cool place out of direct sunlight. These new environment-friendly sandbags have a useful life of about 2 years, then the sunlight begins to break them down and you have to rebuild. So, sorry there will not be a 20 year sandbag eye-sore. The sandbags will dissolve long before then, and yes it would be an eye sore.
If your home will be your castle or fortress, you want to think about layers. In a perfect world the first layer would be to live in a nice country. Next would be to live in a nice small, tight community where folks are friends or at least friendly to one another. They have a sense of community and community pride. Communities that have 300 to 2500 folks have the best chance of developing that source of pride in community and have enough resources and combined skills to work together to keep their community "nice". If you live in larger communities, you would want to live in a neighbourhood that has a sense of community, possibly a neighbourhood that has geographical features that create absolute boundries that could be defended - rivers, creeks, hills, cliffs, railway tracks, sound barriers, etc. Next you would want a strong city block. A city block where everyone knows everyone on that block, so you have the support of each other. In really, really bad times you could barricade your city block. A small island of hope in a city of despair. Lastly, your home and property. Landscape to keep out flood waters, berm the perimeter in nice suburban way. In fact if your lot is large, you may want multiple berms in your landscaping getting progressively higher and thicker as they get closer to your home. These berms could be all manicured lawn or a mix of lawns and flower beds & gardens. Look nice but have function. Lastly, your home. Yes, a brick structure will survive longer than a stick frame home, it will also be more fire resistant. Best bet is to look like nobody is home and that there is nothing left to loot. If you are above the flood plain you may want to research and consider a "second" basement below or adjacent to your home. Someplace you cannot be burned out of. Some place to burrow into and ride out the storm. It would be the most miserable time, but you would have a higher probability of living until the insanity outside had died down, but then what??? You survived, but without a network or community what would you have??
In the big picture, IMHO, I would suggest focusing more resources and time planning to survive lower level disaster situations than the one of events. Having said that, I would not purely ignore or disregard the massively destructive, low probability events - I just would not invest all my time, resources and energy focusing on that type of event.
BTR, great topic. You are getting planty of feedback. I hope it is helping find the solution(s) you were seeking.
Just my 2 cents,
Mountainman.
It appears that some people have not digested the messages in previous posts. Some points that have been missed:
Empty bags stored in a shed away from sunlight.
Bags to be filled and used INSIDE the home against exterior walls about 30" high WHEN news of roving bands of looters arrives.
10 yards of sand will fit into most tandem axle dump trucks. Perhaps not legally (weight) but it will fit. Rest assured you have seen tandem axle 10 yard loads driving down city streets.
I also use sand to refill the holes in my lawn when I remove dandelion tap roots. (1.5" X 10" deep holes are left behind) There is an (albeit silly) excuse for the sand pile that will not be visible from the street or alley unless you are looking over a 5 foot high fence. I also have the space without 'crowding' my back yard.
The cost of a load of sand and 250 bags isn't really that much compared to lots of other prep items considered common.
Than= I’d rather be rich than poor.
Then= I first became hungry then I ate.
There = She is there now.
Their = They have their things.
They're = They're going to the mall.
To = They came to the house.
Too = That's too bad.
Ten cubic yards of sand weighs approximately 11.4 tons and would make a pile six feet wide, six feet long, and seven feet tall. While I'm sure that you had little difficulty reinforcing your walls for shear weight and your floors to handle the extra weight (most floors are rated for fifty pounds per square foot on average), I won't be putting that load on the inside of my home. I realize that this is an exercise based on "fantasy", but let's try to keep to what's physically possible.
Needs must when the devil drives.
Which is why the load is placed next to the exterior wall of the house rather than well into the room. This in turn transfers the load down to the foundation of the house. A floor joist is weakest at the center of the supported ends of the joist. Quite simply, if you support a 16 foot long board on both ends with concrete blocks, the board will be able to support far more weight next to the block than it can support at the point mid way between the blocks.
Likewise if using a board as a lever to lift a heavy load, placing the fulcrum near the load reduces the chance of breaking the board.
Than= I’d rather be rich than poor.
Then= I first became hungry then I ate.
There = She is there now.
Their = They have their things.
They're = They're going to the mall.
To = They came to the house.
Too = That's too bad.
1. If you have a pile of sand in your back yard for "landscaping" it's nobody's business but your own.. Unless you are subject to bylaws that restrict such things.
2. Stored in a shed, your sandbags should remain dry, protected from u.v. as well as out of sight.
3. Mountainman's advice is sound (as it usually is) to layer them. Even if you used smaller yet longer bags to better facilitate a stable structure without eating up your interior space and requiring vast amounts of sand..
4. As for how much stopping power a bag of sand has against various rounds... Perhaps ill do an experiment and post the results.
Living in the City I habve a bit of a different perspective on this. I am fairly confident that a 6ft pile of sand sitting in my yard for use "someday" would not go over well with my neighbors or the community, however that ebing said anyway if there are roving gangs of locust looters I really don't think I would still be in the City. Instead I would have wanted to already be living somewhere else with a good solid defence in place where they are going to have a bugger of a time finding me in the first place.
Living in the City I habve a bit of a different perspective on this. I am fairly confident that a 6ft pile of sand sitting in my yard for use "someday" would not go over well with my neighbors or the community, however that ebing said anyway if there are roving gangs of locust looters I really don't think I would still be in the City. Instead I would have wanted to already be living somewhere else with a good solid defence in place where they are going to have a bugger of a time finding me in the first place.
I wholeheartedly agree. The neighbors around my last house in Calgary (very average 20+ year old neighborhood in the deep south) would have put some sort of unmentioned timeline on getting 'that sand pile' used. The worst part is bylaws in Calgary is set up to create revenue so in many cases rather than just talking to the neighbor an encouraged anonymous tip is called in prompting a visit from bylaws. Fortunately this behavior is almost unheard of at my current location.
(My POV for what it's worth, with no malice or insult intended.) OK, lets look at the wilderness bug out location. Unless you have camped there numerous times over the years you would have very little idea of how many people 'desire' the same location. I random camp in several areas and have received 'the look' from people who seem to regard their particular camping area as theirs and theirs alone. 'The look' can come as they drive by your camp site, even if you provide a friendly wave and a smile, when you are 150 yards away from their site near the access trail. For some reason I think strangers would become less friendly and more suspicious during a SHTF situation.
Calgary has a population of just over 1 million. Calgary's bedroom communities would easily add another 1/4 million to the areas population. If 3% of that population is thinking along the same lines as you are, that represents 37,500 refugees with a plan. I'm sure that lots more folks without a plan or knowledge other than watching survival shows will be bugging out with little or no supplies as well. Even if you are fortunate enough to own a recreational plot of land with living quarters in the middle of nowhere, when you arrive you may find yourself in the unenviable position of having to evict armed squatters from your living quarters.
A youtube channel has an informative 2 part video that explains just how fragile big city civilization is. Please keep in mind that Canadians tend to be more 'gentle' on average but when your belly is hitting your backbone, humans tend to become less humane. http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=9+meals+away+from+anarchy&oq=9+meals+&gs_l=youtube-reduced.1.0.0l2.2699713.2702329.0.2705750.8.6.0.2.2.0.421.1418.1j1j3j0j1.6.0...0.0...1ac.1.7vvXfgtVOC8
While I certainly don't want anarchy to happen, I would like to be somewhat prepared if it comes down to that scenario. A big city is the last place I would want to be during a major emergency.
Than= I’d rather be rich than poor.
Then= I first became hungry then I ate.
There = She is there now.
Their = They have their things.
They're = They're going to the mall.
To = They came to the house.
Too = That's too bad.
1. If you have a pile of sand in your back yard for "landscaping" it's nobody's business but your own.. Unless you are subject to bylaws that restrict such things.
2. Stored in a shed, your sandbags should remain dry, protected from u.v. as well as out of sight.
3. Mountainman's advice is sound (as it usually is) to layer them. Even if you used smaller yet longer bags to better facilitate a stable structure without eating up your interior space and requiring vast amounts of sand..
4. As for how much stopping power a bag of sand has against various rounds... Perhaps ill do an experiment and post the results.
On your 3rd point, while I agree, I would be more inclined to space the bottom bag a few inches away from the wall and off set the bags above that slightly towards the exterior wall much like "Allen Block" retaining walls are built. It's a matter of space and loading of the floor joists that concerns me.
On your 4th point, I think the most interesting result will be how much influence the velocity of the round has on destroying/fragmenting the bullet. I look forward to reading your results.
Than= I’d rather be rich than poor.
Then= I first became hungry then I ate.
There = She is there now.
Their = They have their things.
They're = They're going to the mall.
To = They came to the house.
Too = That's too bad.
Just so you guys know, when I was doing my arctic warfare courses we were instructed that snow-forts can stop an awful lot of incoming fire. The demo was quite eye opening. Even loose snow sufficiently alters a rounds trajectory to make a difference.
Just a winter wonderland thought.
-S.
"It's not what you have, but what you have done".
-S.
Personally I feel that lining the inside of all of your walls with 30" high of sandbags is a little over the top, and somewhat impractical, even if it is well intentioned.
This is a link to an episode of "Surviving Disaster" on Spike TV. It goes over surviving a pandemic, but if you skip to part 5, it goes over practical home defense techniques that are directed towards the types of gangs most of us would expect to encounter when SHTF.
http://www.spike.com/full-episodes/dxhbrm/surviving-disaster-pandemic-season-1-ep-109
