good Ideas !

One point:
You can plant anywhere, really. Something grows everywhere. Annuals can be fairly flexible, so I can see them as a starting point, but the community as a whole would be better with planting and buildings (and livestock) in the same consideration phase.
Factors there include:
Ease of access to garden space
- Simple "commute" reduction, especially for fastest-growing crops
(lettuce, radishes, paw-paw, berries can go from done to wow-past in a day)
- Harvest processing (house, outdoor kitchen, drying shed, curing shed, workspace for cutting and dehydrating space)
- Pest guarding
- Noting any other problems
Ease of access to water
- Rainwater catchment
- Limiting hose length for watering
Ease of access to tools
SHADE CAST BY BUILDINGS
- Biggie, because it decides what you plant where
- You don't have to bother with a big, deep bed (raised or dug, or tilled for rows) for many of the shade crops, especially small ones
Ease of access to fertilizer source (compost, composted manure, humanure, chems in a barn)
Distance from home for odor control (finished compost has some, critters have more)
Pre-existing ergot fungus
Shade from trees (you can thin a tree to lighten shade, but rarely houses or barns because they become gazebos and pagodas)

Additional building/spacing considerations come in depending on livestock and growing scheme
- Birds for tillers
---req's pens set up to control escape, predators, or allow for tractors to go through + more poo-safe space from house and Fort Knox drying shed and dehydrating space;
---nearby sheds to cover seeds, tender seedlings and bolting/seeding crops if tractors aren't being used;
---pens to accommodate tractors or building tractors to accommodate snap-in moving boxes

- Birds for pest control (ducks, possibly guineas)
---Again, tractors, although some less protection is required than for mowing/tilling chickens

- Pigs for tillers
---Fencing controls must be extreme, although possibly more and smaller spaces for staggered harvests

-Rabbits for weed control
---Super polite about not digging seeds, but nibble anything and can be vulnerable to heat and ants
---Can't be in multi-animal runs and left with certainty (fighting, even male-female)
---Baby rabbits can fit anywhere a mouse or snake can squeeze into if they're determined

Goats, pigs, donkeys, and poultry and even rabbits can be fed from the garden "waste" and produce, so even without more active roles...
- Ease of access getting manure in & feed out
- Fowl & rabbits can go under some trees, accepting fruit/nut loss or arranging tarp covers to prevent it
- Same for pigs
-Goats & sheep are escape artists
- Goats, sheep and pigs delight in wrecking hoses
- LGD donkeys will sometimes take out sinister hoses because they look like snakes (apparently)
- Donkeys and dogs and chickens and dogs routinely need separated (donkeys chase dogs & teaching them not to inures LGD to coyotes and foxes and strays, dogs chase chickens when chickens spaz - sometimes even good dogs)
- Require access to snug nighttime homes & daytime grazing
- Ease of water access is a biggie

Then you have the TYPE of growing style
- standard bare-earth rows or beds, limited till, underplanting for ground cover and soil enrichment with those or others, no-till, Eden-style mulch plots, hugelulter, permaculture (or combined tenets of several)
- Interplanting or polycropping/polyface farming, straight rows with alternating neighbors for some benefits
- Crop rotation needed or not-needed by type or sped up by type
- Row type: Walk/drive rows bare, mulched, or used for walk-over "weed feed"
dandelion-chickweed-plantain, clover, fenugreek, etc. for human or livestock feed but OK to walk across;
interspersed with radish, beets or other roots for companion benefits and to prevent as much soil compaction as possible
- Mechanization level (once established; theory being all are available for development because I don't want to be a for-real sodbuster)
Hand tools, nonpowered
Hand tools, powered (tiller, chipper-shredder)
Small riding cultivators, small seed spreaders, diskers or mini seed drills
Mid scale small-farm tractors with the same
Holy big boys batman combines (somebody in the group needs some deep pockets
(With the mechanized tools, other buildings and storage come into play, as do fuels - solar for many hand tools, gassifier or diesel or biodiesel for others)

Land contours
- Planting for optimal water catchment to aid crops, but also for crops to help hold flooding rains back to protect just-seeded crops below
- Low, heavy-water areas may not be ideal for plants, but could expose livestock to foot rot and humans to mosquitoes, so might be better naturalized as hunting areas or turned into edible native marsh
- High, already thin points will take longer to build soils (already prone to air-water soil loss) but also risk skylining buildings and livestock and humans, and so might be better for thin-tolerant desert plants and an LP/OP
- Steep hills susceptible to runoff when tilled, so more suited to terracing or - without major development - perennial rows or blocks and swags, possibly some deep-drill trash mulch fill for catchment to water berry brambles and canes, tree fruits, or perennial self-seeding livestock graze, or turned into a native-seeded free forage for wild or captive self-feeding pigeons & doves (hunting or low-output livestock)

Example macroscale guilds
1 - Rows/beds/plots of annuals, orchard or perennials below and around compost and manure
Catch leaching runoff
Prevents runoff from reaching waterways or human habitat (helps)
Fertilizes (and waters) for you instead of nutrients being wasted in heavy rains
Ease of access for fertilizing beds and trees

2 - Hills with frost-prone valley
Western side shaded half the day, eastern side shaded part of the other
Cold sensitive crops in valley would req more row covers and low hoops for protection or yield can be delayed or ruined by freak early-late frosts
Livestock on the hills would create flow-down into valley (okay if crops are there, bad if there's a creek, real bad if there's a house)
Crops on hills with sun-loving to get western/afternoon sun and cooler crops to get eastern sun but be shaded from afternoon heat and glare, house or livestock or frost-hardy trees and perennials down in the valley, frost-sensitive fruit & nut trees at apexes is a better layout for that situation
Livestock in between allows for runoff catchment, interspersing of natural shade, and ease of moving chickens, goats and pigs into harvested areas to till in or brows off of wheat, barley, buckwheat or teff, summer chard and cabbage, and nitrogen rich pea, bean or clover covers

Steps for anybody of any size for assessment:
1) Soil
- doesn't matter what you have for light, soil is going to be a limiting factor (major mitigation practices will follow)
- pH (alkaline, acidic, neutral)
Oak or pine as compost for lowering basic pH; wood ash, lime or limestone, ground oyster for raising acidic pH)
- Soil type (loam, sand, clay, thin yellow yard dust, bare 1/4" or 1/2" decent decay and tangled roots, thin brown organic layer in light woods or forest due to idiots removing good stuff, nice 2-18" active (buggy) layers of barely recognizable root and plant matter and damp compost-looking and compost-smelling layer under leaves and grasses)
- Current soil activity (crawling things, what's on top)

2) Sun
- Something grows everywhere, although instead of tomatoes and potatoes, foods might shift to naturally understory trees and shrubs, with some greens that can handle different levels

3) Water
- Could be hauled
- Underground spring, aquifer, etc?
- Water catchment capabilities
- Water movement has to be considered (swampy, muddy sections; what kind of rains does it take to flood and how often does it flood; does natural drainage already exist; is the drainage eroding anything already)
- Can affect type of plants by available resources (zero-scaping, increased use of desert or marsh "wild" edibles, increased use of livestock that mimics wildlife tailored to those conditions)

4) Climate/temperature

Mitigation (for anybody, 2x4' bed, 20x20 meter plot, 1 acre, many acres)
- Semi-hugelculture/trench compost beds, semi-buried/semi-raised lasagna beds
Both basically create soil from the bottom up
Allow for good aeration (living soil, compaction)
Allow for good drainage but also good retention (living soil, compaction, less irrigation dependence)
Developing underground fertilizer (less top-down fertilizing, fewer resources)
Can be done with just a few small branches and leaves, layers of coffee and tea and food scraps, paper, then a layer of compost and soil to plant in covered with straw, wood chips or crumbled leaves to create flat-topped semi-raised or totally raised beds, with and without boundaries, instead of the larger limbs that create mounds

-Till-in organic matter
Can help, but usually best with already decent soil if looking for fast returns
Clay soils suck minerals
Tilling in raw materials temporarily creates a nitrogen deficiency as microbes begin to break down matter
The more heavily compacted, thin and inactive a soil, the longer the deficiency lasts
Clay soils increase the time of the deficiency
For gray and pale yellow clays, 1:1 biomass to clay is commonly required, with the biomass 1/2 carbon/browns (wood, dry leaves) to 1/2 greens (household compost, grass trimmings, legumes, garden waste)
------animal manure alone or in high density isn't enough because it lacks the aeration
------compost alone can be used, but it commonly has to be greater than 1:1 and that gets expensive fast
------1/3 compost, carbon, and greens in a 2:1 amendment:clay ratio can turn out usable soil the next season
Sand isn't as bad as clay
-----doesn't bind as much (but won't retain)
-----1/3 mix of amendments in 1:1 amendments to sand ratio, or a 1/3 amendment to 2/3 sand can help
(sometimes building soil overtop is just so much easier)

How's that for an incredibly long post? Did I set any records for wordiness and overload?
That doesn't touch on the actual standard of living, water rights, soil/water table considerations for cellars, housing style, power source(s) or other stuff, but my brain hurts and I must do something not involving a computer for a while.

Farmgal and Denob, Old School, and one of the guys whose name is escaping me (at least, all respect to others I can't call to mind) actually have farms and raise, and would be better sources as well.
My stuff tends to revolve around polyface consulting and permaculture design and corrections, ecosystem restoration, BMP for soil/water conservation, and rainwater management for/from residential and agricultural sources. What I grow myself is small scale at my primary residence, involves a lot of greenie/environmentalist motives, and on larger properties tends to deal with perennials that I can walk away from for months at a time.

Reading the list of buildings above....

spacing keep all building sufficiently close together to make everything a defendable area. But....
spacing keep sufficient spacing such that a fire would not destroy the whole retreat.

Which make me think of:

building material for added fire (or ballistic) protection, I would use brick / cinder blocks and metal roofs construction wherever possible.

MrsPrep is correct... Farmgal and others have farms. I just have small garden and still learning. 🙂

Now that's how it's done! We now know that the garden has some requirements as you listed. We now know that it is somewhat flexible in it's location and can weigh communal walking distance to efficiency. Soil factors are listed and should be considered too. Mrs Prep's concise listing of factors makes it easy to work down her list of variables to cover when selecting it's location. So now we have to consider other variables and later prioritize from accumulated knowledge.

I keep thinking of how villager(member) proposed that folks buy and subdivide. I understand that is what most would want as we expect to see what we paid for and where my property starts and ends. This approach would likely have each were working as a separate entity and would "maintain a mine and yours" mindset while also proving to be non-efficient. In this scenario, I see starting as a small community and expanding into the surrounding countryside later a more efficient and secure way to exist in bad times.

In earlier times, folks would retreat into their fortified community center at the first sign of danger. There they could place guards and detail shifts for around the clock protection. Using this same forethought, and having surrounding gardens also provide no cover for attacking forces, seems an option worth considering. Is this workable, or are there other considerations that make this non-viable?

Reading the list of buildings above....

spacing keep all building sufficiently close together to make everything a defendable area. But....
spacing keep sufficient spacing such that a fire would not destroy the whole retreat.

Which make me think of:

building material for added fire (or ballistic) protection, I would use brick / cinder blocks and metal roofs construction wherever possible.

These are all valid points. Burning out one's enemies is a time-honoured tradition... But building materials are often measured by availability. Log structures are quite bulletproof,especially when done Swedish style(where they square the log and use dovetail type joints). They are very hard to light afire and a metal roof would be a perfect finish to prevent such from occurring. Many structures could have regular framed walls with a stucco finish for fireproofing. Outside walls could allow for a gravel fill if times required at a later date.

Bulldozing a moat seems overkill to nosey neighbours during peace time, but planting thorny bushes and placing strategic obstacles can make one's approach limited. While tastefully landscaping, you could create long ponds and use the removed dirt to create embankments (also tastefully done) to protect from winter winds, while far enough away to not provide enemy cover.

Hello Folks, if you have a question that you want a thought on, please ask, I am interested in the thread but I don't have time at the moment to write out huge amounts, ask and I will do my best to answer.. I have subscribed to the thread so will keep up to date. The one thing I will say, The drinking water well or rain catchment should or could be by the house's but every single building should have its own water catchment system for its own use and or combined livestock or garden use..

When looking at the lay of the land and the planting, learning how the water moves on your land, will allow you to create mini collection sites that in turn will hold water longer allowing different uses for it on the land. you want it to flow and be set up to drain during wet season but you also need to plan for dry..

that goes the same for the gardening, in a nut shell, you should be planning for about five different things to happen, to wet, to dry, not enough water, hard zone, warmer zone etc.. and be planning and building your gardens in layers to deal with the issues above.. as you have said you are starting from the beginning, then you can and should plan to plant and build for many different possablities.

Mrs.Prep...That was an excellent perspective of the possibilities , including variations, in any chosen terrain. The permaculture provides a lot of leeway, and the hugelkultur/beds provide practical carbon sink for future fertility. The production tillage has its place, for volume and staged, monitored control, while gradually more participants get accustomed to the natural laws shown through permaculture.

Mrs.Prep...That was an excellent perspective of the possibilities , including variations, in any chosen terrain. The permaculture provides a lot of leeway, and the hugelkultur/beds provide practical carbon sink for future fertility. The production tillage has its place, for volume and staged, monitored control, while gradually more participants get accustomed to the natural laws shown through permaculture.

Some of it depends on how many people you're looking at supporting, but there are ways to incorporate row cropping or traditional-conventional style beds with aspects of zero-bare-earth, no-till or even just companion planting.
There are very much ways to take companion relationships like Three Sisters to a more efficient space and harvest effort use, ways to make use of space between those rows with forage/fodder and nitrogen-building compost, and ways to bring in herbs with medicinal, herbal, and poultice uses into rows and beds as pollinator/predator attractants and as nurse crops.
I have limited grow space in my primary residence, so I underplant and succession plant pretty much everything, and manage to "build" soil even in relatively small containers, to the point that I have to specifically stress soil in containers to provide me with a seed starter and nasturtium soil source.

I really love the ability to pull in hugelkultur with a modified, shorter version and less complicated version of a lasagna bed.

It's got huge benefits for drought seasons here, as well as early production spring beds when almost everything else is soaked, but it's less labor and calls for fewer large tree resources than straight hugelultur mounds and can be done in 2-4' wide blocks so equipment can still straddle it for nice density with some crops and less hand labor, can be just as effective with lower mounds when semi-dug down into the heavy clay+sand soils we fight here on the Midatlantic coastal plain.

They also lend themselves well to olla-style irrigation and to having a partially sub-set rain collection bucket set below the surface to feed the beds, and to having keyhole composters for worms added. Those really only work with hand-tended beds, though.

Plus, between the mounds you can be growing low clover for biomass and nitrogen and bunny/chicken food, or my favorite edible weeds, or even low flowers and "weedy type" herbs that attract pollinators or things like crowder peas that are more for livestock or wild dove/pigeon forage and nitrogen, so wading through them for bed maintenance and watering isn't a big deal.

The turnaround from them is incredibly fast compared to straight soil building from soil building in traditional permaculture methods but it's more limited labor and regularly takes fewer specific resources than Back-to-Eden gardening.

I keep thinking of how villager(member) proposed that folks buy and subdivide. I understand that is what most would want as we expect to see what we paid for and where my property starts and ends. This approach would likely have each were working as a separate entity and would "maintain a mine and yours" mindset while also proving to be non-efficient. In this scenario, I see starting as a small community and expanding into the surrounding countryside later a more efficient and secure way to exist in bad times.

?

Knuckle : Great thread you've started. Just a clarification re my proposal : It wasn't me who suggested subdivision. To the contrary, i proposed buy-ins at 3 levels of affordability 1/4 acre, 1 acre, and 2 acres , (on a huge property with a limited number of appropriate building spots )for individual units, single , couple or family... for their own "private domain" while shareholding the rest of the commons , and enjoying all of it within agreed parameters, meant to preserve its whole sustainability.
There would be forest gardening, microclimate nooks, and a large community garden which would be an ( paid) enterprise for a few , in service for many not able to do it.... in a mix of personal exchange/barter/cash. Plenty of room for home enterprises for profit, as long as reserves/preserves are sufficiently retained for the whole's needs in critical periods always.
This is a very flexible thing, mixing "private/personal" with responsible Commons maintenance, and curtails a profiteering motive. Value is stable in this kind of committed base. Fair contingencies are in place if any member leaves, without loss.
The degree of social engagement is also an individual matter, without coercion .
While most of the known physical infrastructure has been considered also, and remains flexible/dynamic, this goes into the equally, or more important area, of self-motivated social cultivation...in an already established community base.
This is the primary focus of our project, ( if it proves timely enough to establish before being forced to collude, in an emergency location ..which was your beginning, valid premise.)
There's too much else which could be included, but not appropriate here. There is so much collective wisdom in the wings.

I'll kick in my two cents worth. We may be getting ahead of our selves here on the farm structure. People conductive to working together is the issue. I know, like many people here, you have read, Dmitry Orlov's, The Five Stages Of Collapse. He has a new book coming out soon called, Communities That Abide. I think its going to be mentally challenging but challenge is good. In my own MAG building, I feel quite honored to collect some high quality but laid back people. Now that I have gotten to know them and understand their personalities a bit...I've had to reject a few other applicants, that were decent and qualified people, simply because there personalities would not work for social cohesion with the original members. The flavour has already been set by the people involved and that's the direction the group will be from here on in. I've really tried to push relationship building. To get people through the hard times, they really have to like each other and if not like,than have a deep appreciation for how well they work together. A group will become extended family. Its very much like marrying each other though that's a creepy analogy. I find it true just the same. It takes that level of commitment to others.
I've played around in my head, with the idea of building some type of group mythology, or subtle rituals that help build social cohesion by helping members feel they are part of the "In" group, creating loyalty and a feeling of belonging. One of the things I started right at the beginning was greeting the members with a Biker style hand shake and hug combo. That helps build a subtle ritual that lets members know they in the inside group. A yearly holiday together can also build a binding ritual. I may have to create a story or song that gets repeated around the bonfire. Ild like to here other peoples ideas on this.

I love all the optimism folks are showing here. (I too am trying to shut off my criticisms 😀 )

I was unaware of your original intent villager, and am impressed by your original approach. Each area needs to be worked out and and your trying to create an acceptable approach to get members to join is likely a chapter in itself. Cernon5 is correct that money can't be the only factor as a "thorn underfoot remains until it is removed"! The work on a trade system evolving inside the community is a concept that I never imagined and it could either unite or divide a community, but those issues could be dealt with by a Council most likely.

I'd figured to add more parameters to this scenario such as say an initial 10 families as a start-up group to base this design on. Out of that , we might decide specific trades or such to cover as many bases regarding construction, medical, educational and horticultural requirements. There are so many aspects that we need to cover that we should just likely sort things as we go. Then the Admins can move or even copy pertinent info into it's subject area for further expansion.

This is what I can see as sub- categories so far:

Chapter 1: Location: size requirements, water, sewer, expansion, etc.,

Chapter 2: Membership: # of families, things they bring to the table, and how to sell it to others etc.

Chapter 3: Layout: what goes where and why and best way to build it

Chapter 4: Resources: garden, water usage, solar energy, root cellars and all that stuff I know nothing about

Chapter 5: Defenses: yup, you know all this entails...

Chapter 6: Communications: electronically and even socially

Chapter 7: Economics: how to pay for what yo need, barter, communal equipment vs personal, etc.,

Chapter 8: Education: sharing knowledge, passing it on, cross-training, etc.,

Chapter 10: Council: communal laws, enforcement, settle disputes, pay peacetime taxes, etc.

Chapter 11: Health & Recreation: medical facilities layout,equipment,health aspects, & Recreational activities

Did I miss anything????

note:(I'm adding all suggestions here to keep it all together)

I'm thinking of this knowledge sorted as chapters because that is how I see this...as a book of accumulated knowledge, formulated by prepper's as a guide to achieving a workable society within the confines of a failing one! No individual can profit financially from this as it will be available for all at the same price as Linux software ...which means it's free! All input can later be sorted and weighed for it's value and then we'll formulate a final draft to present her for distribution. No copyright infringements to impair the sharing of knowledge...at least we can dream. And maybe this could set the ground rules to making villager's utopia become a reality 😮 🙂 😀 😆

Another limit I'm trying to work around is how to present files and such more easily in this forum. I use photobucket (but only for images) so far but does anybody have any ideas how we could upload PDF files and then link them to here? In this way we could share maps, charts, and other documents to better formulate a working version of this book.