Knuckle wrote:
"The success of instilling this thought process here would surely be low as usually it needs the core basics be instilled at an early age. I know it is hard to formulate thought without personal influence intervening. This is why I often state point form as the best method of success when teaching others their knowledge thru written words. It keeps things focused and the instructor better able to impress his methodology."

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...Appreciate your comment, Knuckle, and understand how you arrived at the apparent conclusion in pursuit of your concise database.
For sure , i can and will improve the relative virtue of being more succinct...(via point form on another occasion).....but i also don't regard my "personal influence" as an "intervening", because especially defining such life-process-premises , the medium is the message. 🙂 I note that most folks take that prerogative of offering, in exchange for the possibility of meaningful interaction...with the intention of mutual benefit.

Understandably in this venue, "learning" is not experienced via rote/info as a substitute for live mentorship, so there is in me the urge to "enliven" curt instruction by referencing causal, relevant factors. In my experience on-the-ground,...newbies considering these.. acquire far more awareness of self-discerned in-struction.
Every year we had new (paying) garden members, some more,some less..willing to hear beyond the literal instruction to the "why". Indeed, some say "just tell me what to do and i'll do it"...and they weren't all of military background. (Believe me though, i know there are times when that is most appropriate!)
That may seem ok , but it can also have serious consequences for the whole group's invested garden.
To that end, all are encouraged to learn each aspect of the tasks involved, and not just their favorites. It requires further understanding of the basics, so that when others are absent they can fill in.
At best it's a mixed bag, and all is useful.

I will add this helpful link below for folks to simply comply with, or optionally learn, the pattern of complementary, lunar/planetary sowing and planting....no matter what style of gardening is done.
This has been documented in modern times for over 50 yrs. and is descendent from ancient times.
If the English version is used, the translation is a bit awkward, but the dated (GMT) indications are accurate.
Important : Remember to checkmark the" English Version" button and the "Sidereal Zodiac" button in this hemisphere.....not the "Tropical."

The pattern of reference in the (free) monthly chart is the dominant feature of any particular plant type Root, Flower, Leaf, and Fruit/Seed ...always in that sequence.
These aspects are enhanced in the plants when sowing/planting/cultivating/weeding,harvesting on the dates and within the hourly times indicated.
Best to aim for a middle time of the period, and avoid composting/sowing/planting/cultivation too close to either end of the times indicated.
There are a few other points to note but i'll mention one : do what you can in these times when the weather is favourable, and not procrastinate till when it then rains.
Note also, that when the moon is in "perigee", it's best not to do any tasks in the garden, except sharpen/organize your tools.
Perigee refers to the elliptical orbit of the moon when it passes closest to the Earth, exerting most water-related influence upon it. The amount of rain in that time increases predictably on average in places already predisposed to regular rainfall. Best to have done seeding /planting /cultivation well before....or be surprised sometimes!
The opposite end of that elipse is "apogee"...which is generally a more balanced period for activity in garden.

So, herewith is a monthly reference of point-forms : http://www.astrologie-info.com/mocal.cgi

So, enjoy the gain in quality and volume with this while still available online.

And I thought the last threat was complex 😀

"You may have thought you understood what I said, but what you thought is not what I meant"! 😳 🙄

We are making things complex when we should be trying for simple! Mrs. Prep's work was thorough and stayed on track at all times. Her presentation was "Gardening Made Easy, Volume 3" for the knowledgeable or even semi knowledgeable gardener. Since I am neither, I don't have down some of the lingo and basic knowledge, yet I still save and store her entire comments as I can tell that I will be referring to them at a later date.

I can tell that villager too has knowledge to share but I can't focus on the content when I'm sorting complex words used to describe basic gardening. It kinda reminded me of how many lawyers use big long words to confuse witnesses in a courtroom!(P/O flashbacks...sorry.. 🙄 ) To properly impart knowledge on one such as myself, One must remember back when your thumbs were not green yet and you never knew what a dictionary was..... the KISS theory is best! 😆 😆

Taken from another thread, I came to the conclusion that the downfall to a retreat vs a homestead is that one has to be there on a daily basis to maintain such as a garden and even small livestock. In having 2 places, one has double the expense in an unstable economy. Many visitors to this forum live in an urban environment and wish to stay there for various reasons. So how can one have it both ways?

That brings me back to the tourist camp idea then from another thread. Since it could turn a profit when not in use, the investment could pay for the operator(and hopefully he is an investor too) to have camp personnel tend the garden, fix cabins and make enough to pay taxes with at least enough left over to cover interest on the money invested. All the while, the investor could book his cabin for his family's free holidays whenever he wished and know too that he had a retreat ready to go when the need arose.

Like many businesses, most camp owners reinvest their profits into upgrades and expansion. So upgrading the camp would look normal to local folks and other curious parties. It also would explain generators, solar panels, wind turbines, RV hookups ( for invited guests into your community) the garden, and a long list of other necessitates. It would put your families off the beaten path, in a location with fish, wild game and plenty of fresh water. It would surround you with firewood and many of the basics such as your own water and sewer system. Log cabins are near bullet proof and with metal roofs, near impossible to light on fire. Having shutters on the windows is just standard procedure during winter shutdown. In reality, col weather modifications one would have to do though for winter living as most camps just drain the pipes for the winter and move to warmer climates. Few camps are of log design anymore. Therefore they would need insulating otherwise. And this too can all be written off as you could offer winter ice fishing for the tax breaks.

My point is that many who could afford the investment need to stay in business and only want to have a fallback. They could even better justify the investment by time-share with friends and family during the slower periods of summer in late June and July. They could practice their outdoors skills during a holiday and have the camp operator teach them required skills. Folks could have their children hired on as summer help which would build character while training them in outdoor living. And as the camp progresses towards it's dual purpose, so does the investment. If an investor needs to cash out, he will likely turn a tidy profit. There are better ways to invest ones money for higher returns, but no other ones likely offer security in event of SHTF scenario.

Finding a 10 cabin camp ready to go for $300 K would be zero. You would likely have to buy a run down camp and build it into such a place. This is why is would not likely turn much of a profit. There are a few that have been milked and let fall into disarray enough that they can be had for so little. Such camps that are in good shape are $1.5 million or so. You must remember that camps need decent boats and motors and other such things to be a tourist camp. Wells and septic fields are required by law and maintained to stay in business. Yet upgrading a fixer-upper is how the investor can be sure to make a profit on the sale of his portion, should he wish to do so. This approach is something one could sell to others far more easily as a both a backup plan and a potential investment too. If SHTF, the camp would no longer have tourists anyway in a crashed economy. And otherwise everything would already be in place and up to date for such an occurrence.

Taken from another thread, I came to the conclusion that the downfall to a retreat vs a homestead is that one has to be there on a daily basis to maintain such as a garden and even small livestock. In having 2 places, one has double the expense in an unstable economy. Many visitors to this forum live in an urban environment and wish to stay there for various reasons. So how can one have it both ways?
That brings me back to the tourist camp idea then from another thread...

You could run that one a couple of different ways, especially depending on the size and location of the community. A private hunting/shooting club and possibly a you-pick perennial berry/fruit farm springs immediately to mind, with the first real members only or a for-profit or larger membership shooting range near an entrance and the rest of the property kept quiet. The second could also be handled as a all-hand-on-deck-for-harvest facility to help reduce costs.

It wouldn't alleviate the expense - or not entirely - but using a groundskeeper or two, and-or somebody interested in maintaining the desired livestock, maintenance and such could help by maintaining the property. Food forests could be established and maintained for group profit, fields and water arranged and maintained, trespassers discouraged, weather damage repaired promptly, and whoever is interested in farming for a living - or part of it - would be able to do so.

A couple spare cabins could easily blend in with some of the farms I've seen. I've also seen a group property set up so that basically there are a handful of small shipping containers that were moved inside a large tractor shed, insulated well, and are intended as family space, with a couple of small community areas inside the shed, and a couple of RV spots, a couple 8x20 connexes blending in around the property, and the house basically almost divided into three suites and a communal kitchen and dining room.

Waving the environmentalist flag can help with a lot of explanation when it comes to power and water needs, as well as septic and then composting toilets.
Food forests are brilliant because once established, they tend to only need care a few times a year and harvested. That allows an individual or two or a family and 1-2 individuals to maintain the rest with some periodic help for harvest and processing. Once need arises, field production can be expanded while living off stored foods and litters/flocks can be expanded.

Permaculture is much the same all the way around, and like the greenie flag, can help explain away some of the purchases. Plus, a permaculture farm can be used to explain "visitors" - they're interested in learning, they're investors, they're seasonal employees.

Those sound like some good tactics to use in a more agriculture area and what you propose is alot more like where villager is wishing to set up. I don't know of your exact term "food forest", but assume it would require trees that produce fruit and therefore not much of an option for most of Canada.

I like how you mention ideas to avoid drawing attention as any country person knows is easy to do. (There always seems to be some bylaw that can be imposed just to piss you off! ) Nosey neighbours say enough about others to me that I can imagine what they say about me when I'm not around either. It is reminder enough to know who feeds the rumor mill and city folk are not used to having to sort local gossip! Years back some urbanites tried to set up a grow-op way out in the boonies but local chat soon sorted out their various purchases in town to make someone(or more) to call CrimeStoppers.

At even the mention of any type of gun range brings in officials and regulations once again. It would also put up red flags in Canada likely more than the US. Your having pre-made excuses to feed the locals goes along way in keeping the dust down on the road to discovery. Meanwhile, most tourist camps don't have time for a garden but it could easily be passed off as "going green" attitude and only for personal use (or they'd be lining up with reg books again)!

The point here is that we have covered a variety of ways to supplement income for expenses incurred in upgrades for preparation. Villager's community could maybe incorporate some of these tactics and with their community organized efforts, it would even allow for individuals to have the benefits of farm animals with a co-op approach as to their maintenance so they weren't locked down to the land as a farmer is by these daily needs. It's too bad that farmers are used to individual ownership because many city folk who are interested really need mentoring by those who have done such work as a life commitment.

Food forests are very much doable in Canada, in a nut shell, its taking or developing a working forest that is a combo of tree's, bushes, root veggies, climbing vines, herbs with self-seeding annuals etc, So think of a very well planned out natural forest but that is created to produce fruits, nuts, herbs and veggies, medical plants etc.

There are many folks in Canada that are working on creating food forests all across Canada in many different climate ratings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_gardening

Food forests are very much doable in Canada, in a nut shell, its taking or developing a working forest that is a combo of tree's, bushes, root veggies, climbing vines, herbs with self-seeding annuals etc, So think of a very well planned out natural forest but that is created to produce fruits, nuts, herbs and veggies, medical plants etc.

There are many folks in Canada that are working on creating food forests all across Canada in many different climate ratings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_gardening

There are no fruit or nut trees growing up my way that I know other than crab apples. They don't even do well either. Pretty much spruce, balsam and pine, willow, birch and poplar. Even maple grows further south. The Canadian Shield consists of much rock and clay with the soils and plenty of marsh land for the moose. Most people here buy earth from Manitoba for their gardens as I guess we need all the advantages we can get in the shorter growing season. A few hay only farms exist in Dryden but that is all(too many rocks). One sheep farm and even a few with a cow or two and some horses here and there. I think there is a dairy somewhere out there my milk container says Manitoba. when the wolves come into town to kill the deer, a cow or horse is easy pickings...

I think a food forest concept is likely better where forest replanting has occurred a few times. Coniferous trees have shallow wide roots where deciduous trees have deep roots. I cant imagine turning the soil without killing the roots and thus killing the tree. When you start into Manitoba from Ontario, the deciduous trees become the victor and there is where the farms start too.....hmmmm! I guess much of the prairies have the ability to grow some fruit trees but no one is making a living off of them, is there? All I know of is grapes in the Okanagan valley in BC. What kind of edible nuts grow in Canada? I figure the only nuts that the squirrels carry up here where I live is the ones between the males legs 😮

If there are squirrels, there is a nut tree of some kind.
There are also 3-4 zones on the border between Manitoba and Ontario.
http://atlas.agr.gc.ca/agmaf/index_eng.html#context=phz-zrp_en.xml&extent=-6841059.6077689,-877501.55919695,7368821.6077689,4047273.5591969&layers=place37M,place25M,place15M,place5M,place1M,place500K,place250K;rivers25M,rivers15M,rivers5M,rivers1M,rivers500K,lakes37M,lakes25M,lakes15M,lakes5M,lakes1M,lakes500K,Roads25M,Roads15M,Roads5M,Roads1M,Roads500K,ferry500K,bndy5-37M,bndy1M,BndyLn1-5M;PlantHardinessZone2000 ;
Wow. What a link. But it will tell you what zone you're in, and from that you can look up what plants will grow.
The root system shapes and sizes between deciduous and pine-types aren't really all that different. Some of the difference is just the soil and adaptability. Once you establish the forest, you're not plowing right beside the roots. You can do some digging and build soil above to hand work, but the joy there is that you're mostly raking in a nitrogen fixer or pollinator attractant.

If there are farms for more than wheat, barley, cabbage, and parnsips, a berry or tree of some kind is possible. Usually farms do not import soil on a large scale, although they may be importing fertilizer and other chemicals, and over time have built up the quality of their soils using buckwheat, fenugreek, clover, peas, alfalfa, winter beans, forage oats, forage turnips and beets, and others. Somebody in Canada made a living off of Juneberries.

Even on the tundra, there are human-edible plants of some kind. If all else fails, you're unwilling to move to an area with better propagation options with less work, and you want to support a community, you may need to plant a native edible "forest" (read: marsh, scrubs, woods) using wild natives.
The focus in that case might also be on those that will also encourage game like ptarmigan or quail and that will support small livestock like rabbits and goats, with imports like Siberian pea shrub and black locust (if legal in your area) for resources, a switch to heavier nut producing pines, and high-yield multi-use reeds and cattails (again, if legal).
Here's a few links with options, all focusing on northern Manitoba:
http://www.gov.mb.ca/ana/pdf/mafri-frcrops.pdf
http://www.hardyfruittrees.ca/catalog/nut-tree
http://treeexperts.mb.ca/index.php?p=article20042
http://northernbushcraft.com/guide.php?ctgy=edible_berries&region=mb
http://northernbushcraft.com/guide.php?ctgy=edible_plants&region=mb

One benefit of a food forest/forest garden/natives garden is that is doesn't necessarily look like row crops or even pasture, plus, using a native can mean fighting fewer battles. Sometimes yield is lower than the commercialized domesticated equivalents, which then goes back to how much land you need to cultivate.

Wow! That is quite a link. It puts me in a 2b zone. What I do notice from having worked in the bush is that trees such as spruce and balsam grow in the swampy lowlands and pine and poplar and such grow more on the sandier high ground. When clearing bush around lakes, if you take out too many deciduous trees, the coniferous die off too. Their wide shallow roots can't sustain the winds as well and thats why you see many that fall over in a wind storm when they grow too tall. It's nice to see that it shows my area as the same type as Calgary but is hard to fathom as we are in the snow belt. Calgary has likely had a least 6 weeks of warm weather by now whereas we still have snow in the bush and ice on the lakes that are not fast moving. Folks quit driving the ice roads last week but still walked on it yesterday and tourist season opened on May 15...meaning the ice should have been gone already! (btw, why do we call it tourist season if we can't shoot them?) ❓ 😕

I state this to show that we have a much shorter growing season. Those who do have gardens here have it fenced with plenty of small game traps it appears to draw them in. Where you have patches of forest, we have patches of cleared land, swamp and lakes. I think man has to work much harder here to have something grow that isn't local. I would love to think I could create a forest garden but I will wait till someone else succeeds at it first. 😆

I had used the link http://northernbushcraft.com/ to create my own pdfs for Ontario. One for berries, one for mushrooms and still working on one for roots. It took me weeks in the evening but I reduced each plant to 1 page with 3 photos to show a closeup, then in bud and finally it in its surroundings. Along with specified text, I need only to call up the data on my cell or print the data to have a working copy. These files and many others are stuff I wish to share with this forum. Others could use this same approach to modify mine to Manitoba's plant life and so on. I love the idea that this stuff grows naturally and I could call this data up if I was ever in a situation that I needed to know what was edible around me. I had always figured playing the taste test game was sorta like Russian roulette..

It puts me in a 2b zone. ... It's nice to see that it shows my area as the same type as Calgary but is hard to fathom as we are in the snow belt. Calgary has likely had a least 6 weeks of warm weather by now whereas we still have snow in the bush and ice on the lakes that are not fast moving.

According to the farmer's almanac, Calgary's last frost is still a week+ away with 50% confidence (May 23-ish): http://www.almanac.com/content/frost-chart-canada

Those who do have gardens here have it fenced with plenty of small game traps it appears to draw them in. ... Where you have patches of forest, we have patches of cleared land, swamp and lakes.

People in Wyoming have a harder time growing than people in Nebraska. People in Nebraska are more limited than people in Florida. Maryland's clay-sand and Alabama's red clay each have their own challenges as far as water tables, temperature and native cover that affects pH and nutrients, and what it's possible to grow. Pretty much anybody with a conventional garden (and in many cases farms and nontypical gardens) have to find ways to cope with or deal with wildlife.

I think man has to work much harder here to have something grow that isn't local...I would love to think I could create a forest garden but I will wait till someone else succeeds at it first.

Man always has to work harder for non-natives. You mentioned some frustration and sympathy for farms in the area in an earlier post. If there are farms, there is a way to grow in that area.

If somebody is interested in Canadian permaculture locations, there is a list at the back of this file: http://www.foodmattersmanitoba.ca/sites/default/files/Permaculture%20in%20Canada.pdf
It seems to largely be saskatoons, berry brambles, and sometimes cherries in zone 2b and 2a, but in zone 3 there is a successful orchard with all kinds of things.
Many large cool-climate nuts (hickory, walnut) are resticted to zones 5-8, but some varieties thrive to 3 according to some searches, and pine nuts and oaks grow in additional zones. There are also non-native options like Siberian elms for green or brown samas and Siberian pine for pine nuts and oil.

One of the advantages to a forest garden or permaculture rolling terrain is that it doesn't look like cultivated land, which may appeal to some. The same methods of a forest garden or food forest can absolutely be adapted to climates where shrub-scrub is more common or the soil is totally saturated bogs, where selective propagation and management can increase edible production as well as create increased habitat for wildlife or livestock that can fill in for more of the diet as it does in a lot of semi-nomadic native communities.

Could you build yourself a green house Knuckle ?
Or build a greenhouse attached to your house , which helps to insulate from one wall ?

That I could do but I like the forest garden idea better, just don't see it working too well here or I'd bet others would have tried by now. I have looked at green houses and like the part underground concept too but see snow loads as the make or break part again that no one ever mentions. I remembered to shovel my house and mothers house but never thought of shoveling off the 48 ft tractor trailer by my shop. This year was so bad that it's roof gave in under the weight. Even a really good green house would have collapsed this year. My Canadian Tire car tent lasted 2 years with me shoveling it off every snowfall. I see now why many don't have greenhouses around here either. 😥

BTW, the small farms are 100 miles southeast of here with less lakes and different as it is a more sand earth soil with mostly pine and poplar growth. I've seen some serious greenhouses there and will have to check out how they survived the winter. I have a 15'x40' commercial domed tent behind my shop that is 20 years old that still survived, but the roof is 15' high with a fairly steep slope for snow run off. I wonder if building a green house with a A-frame roof is a viable alternative?

I've seen some serious greenhouses there and will have to check out how they survived the winter. I have a 15'x40' commercial domed tent behind my shop that is 20 years old that still survived, but the roof is 15' high with a fairly steep slope for snow run off. I wonder if building a green house with a A-frame roof is a viable alternative?

A frames have been done. Sometimes wind can be a factor and there's a width to height & length ratio that affects the effectiveness of greenhouses to hold heat. Daylight and temperatures mean the contents of the greenhouse might be restricted to lower plants, anyway, but if it's to be used as summer production for annuals, the height factor might come into play, too.
There's also the back and forth between "steep enough for snow to slide off" and "gentle enough grade to funnel winds over the top and not turn into a sail." Placing it with native trees on 1-2 sides or in a curve that protect it from the strongest seasonal winds, or attaching it to the lee of a building can help with that. Height of trees, direction of winds, and crop selection may factor into the amount of light it gets.

An igloo/yurt/dome greenhouse might be an idea as well. They tend to function much like a regular igloo and can be built so that they aren't susceptible to heavy winds the way high hoops and sometimes gothic designed greenhouses are. Initial snow and freezing rain sluice off to the sides, then help bear the weight of heavy snows in blizzard conditions. They have some issues of their own, especially with ventilation.

I see that many come in daily and read this thread. Likely they even wish that we would continue on it. It seems to me that things became less factual and more discussion at my mention to keep it simple. I did this on the basis that if I was having a harder time keeping up (due to covering subjects I was short on knowledge of), maybe others were too. Starting at the beginning is likely hard for those who now are at advanced levels, but basic instruction is still required for those who come here to learn.

My concept for gathering this knowledge was for those experienced to share their method of approach on a given subject. I assumed the reader could then opt for one of these approaches by simply determining which method suited him best. What I never considered was multiple techniques might confuse the reader completely.

I know there are many books on a given subject. Most entail lots of reading to extract a few facts required to start along the path. I know too that there are many considerations to take in before starting any journey...but those who have taken the journey should be able to share methods to speed up this process somewhat. I figured that listing each possible chapter would inspire folks to maybe share their knowledge on that subject. This might be how you could achieve sharing it with those less experienced.

1. Write down your thoughts in a word program such as MS Write first.
2. List points that you consider need mention and then place them in a order to properly present the subject.
3. As a subject grow in size, break it down further to keep readers on track. If need be, separate the large data as a Part 2 to be presented later.
4. When you have a draft you consider worthy of presenting, save it and go do something else for a while. Reread your draft with a clear mind and try to define those areas that you find may be misleading.
5. Present your draft to a friend to get their perspective on it....then fix that which you conclude needs further attention.
6. Submit your article for others to benefit from, knowing you did your best to enlighten those who need it most.

Chapter 5: Defences

Here is area no one has touched upon yet in this thread. What I envision in my is the absolute is likely along the lines of a castle in the days of old ... tall perimeter walls, moat surrounding a great field of view to spot a potential invasion a mile away...then I wake up!

Since this scenario doesn't fit many if any of us, we have to do with what we have. And we have to do it without our neighbours thinking were nuts (yes, I mean you too prom 😆 ). So lets start at the basics:

Securing Your Home

1. Go outside your home and imagine your a thief. Where would you break in? That's where you start.
2. Add window locks & bars to each lower floor window that allows easy entry into your home.
3. Reenforce doors and jambs against easy entry by adding deadbolts, window bars, etc.
4. Take the same measures to attached garage and outbuildings on your property.
5. Eliminate as many possible hiding spots by clearing branches, lowering hedges.
6. Plant thorny bushes below windows and other suspicious spots.
7. Install motion detection lights on all sides of house and even outbuildings.
8. Invest in security cameras as another layer of defense
9. Add chain link or other secure fence to limit access and restrict a thief's view of your assets
10. Plan multiple escape routes in case of emergency and multiple meeting points

Remember that you don't have to turn your home Fort Knox, just make it less appealing than your immediate neighbours!