Been thinking alot about long term sustainability in a SHTF situation. It seems to me there are alot of farmers in Alberta, more than enough to supply the population with food. In most situations, those farmers are likely to try and keep selling their product to people.
The dollar however may no longer be worth anything. Now preppers seem to love buying gold for this eventuality. But gold only has value if people say it does. Otherwise it's not actually good for anything.
If you were a post apocalyptic farmer, what would you accept as payment?
I'd better be getting some truckloads of produce for my gold, unless I'm using the cards with just a little flake in there. The only gold we stock in significant amounts are to pay off back taxes or fees or get somebody out of hock and to keep cash out of cash. We do silver in a bigger way, but are fairly limited on the $50 and $100 flakes of gold and the larger coins.
Assuming the farmers have fuels for the machines needed to run modern conventional farms and to ship in the fertilizers and pesticides and herbicides that are common, I would think precious metals would still have some value. Ours are mostly stocked for less apocalyptic society stumbles or coming out the other side.
If it's super apocalyptic, I am more likely to need a trade skill I don't have than an item if I am a farmer, because I'm probably just as interested in feeding my family as everybody else. In which case I might be interested in some security that my double-barrel and deer rifle and varmint gun can't buy me. On the other hand, I as I exist today kind of flinch at the idea of supplying somebody not a really good friend with a firearm or ammo in a desperate world.
I can see a role for barter, so we stock some stuff for barter. However, I don't stock anything we wouldn't eventually use. I just stock some stuff in excess proportions:
-diapers (cloth and disposable), pads (cloth and disposable), tampons (cups, sponges, disposables)
-.22LR and Mag/WMR and shotguns shells
-Sugar
-Soap
-Crank and solar battery chargers and Nokero lights, plus extra rechargable batteries and efficient battery operated lamps
-Basic nonperishable medical supplies
-Cold and flu symptom relievers, aspirin and tylenol and low-dose aspirin, stomach meds for man and beast, antibiotics, herbs with antifungal and antiviral and antibacterial properties
-Parasite preventatives and treatment
-Booze
-tire patch kits
Fuel for my tractor
Better to have it and not need it; then to need it and not have it...
I'm afraid that most farmers won't be able to feed anyone without the use of financial institutions for credit to buy fuel, seed, fertilizer, pesticides etc, and that's just to grow the wheat.
Cattle farms will be no better off, it takes huge amounts of fuel and feed to sustain cattle that they will be a liability as soon as fuel becomes expensive or hard to get. Some would say that you could slaughter all the cattle but how do you organize the processing and storage of millions of animals? I'm afraid most cattle will die of starvation due to no infrastructure to feed them.
Gold's value has never gone to zero ever since it was first used as money. It takes blood sweat and tears to produce gold and it is has a limited supply as a physical resource. Fiat currency (that stuff you fold and put in your wallet) on the other hand can be created with a printing press and/or more often than not with the push of a key on a computer. It is really worth little more that the paper it is printed on and a promise of it's value by the government that endorses it. If the government that promises payment goes bankrupt, the fiat currency has no value. What does the bank lend then?
While you can't burn gold in a tractor or eat gold for dinner it does retain some value. Can you imagine a baker taking 7 loaves of bread and a jerry can to the fuel depot to get 5 gallons of gas to take to a farmer and trade for a bushel of wheat? I can imagine a baker taking silver coins to the farmer to buy wheat, the farmer who uses those coins to buy fuel, and the owner of the fuel depot using those coins to buy bread. Gold would be used for bigger purchases like a few head of cattle or a tractor.
How did the settlers get by without bank credit? The store gave them credit until their crops/livestock were harvested. I knew a MD who got paid in chickens and ham from time to time before public health care was formed. They used to call it barter. My goods for your services.
Than= I’d rather be rich than poor.
Then= I first became hungry then I ate.
There = She is there now.
Their = They have their things.
They're = They're going to the mall.
To = They came to the house.
Too = That's too bad.
Oddly, I was reading Traveller's other thread regarding the Wall Street Advisor who has done a series of talks on 'surviving an economic collapse'. He discusses the gold theory halfway down the page;
http://www.emarotta.com/is-a-financial-apocalypse-coming/
I forgot to mention that I collect all the mini sample booze bottles I can. They should be somewhat useful for bartering with farmers and ranchers 😎
Really it comes down to what your needing from a farmer.. but they wont trust your seeds.. may or may not trust your fuel.. I would take ammo for trade if someone needed a pile of veggies or fruit.. Ammo (22's for sure) will always be needed...
I forgot to mention that I collect all the mini sample booze bottles I can. They should be somewhat useful for bartering with farmers and ranchers 😎
If your trading for a toothbrush.. 😆
Funny thing, about 10 years ago I went to my regular gas station and asked the owner (agent?) if he would accept a silver maple leaf in exchange for $11.00 worth of gasoline. He looked at me for a split second and said "In a heartbeat." If the dollar collapsed and he was sitting on tens of thousand liters of gasoline, I'm betting that I would be the customer preferred over the gent that wanders in with a billfold full of paper (polymer?).
Farmers have an idea of commodity prices as well, hell, not knowing can break a farmer in no time flat. It's a pretty small stretch to learn about precious metals and you can bet farmers would be on that faster than a fat boy heading for the fridge. I'll spend my money on things I need while you get rejected and laughed at trying to pass off your currency as having value.
Than= I’d rather be rich than poor.
Then= I first became hungry then I ate.
There = She is there now.
Their = They have their things.
They're = They're going to the mall.
To = They came to the house.
Too = That's too bad.
I forgot to mention that I collect all the mini sample booze bottles I can. They should be somewhat useful for bartering with farmers and ranchers
Farmers know how to make stuff - like moonshine. They also have the means and materials.
In a real SHTF the systems that produce and distribute our modern lifestyle will be disrupted or fail. Alcohol, cigarettes, and silver are worthless to hungry people.
Food first, then energy commodities like batteries, electricity to charge them(wind or solar), fuels of all kinds for vehicles , heaters and generators.
Yeah I've more or less given up the idea of bartering with farmers. Got a book of edible plants on order, and a growing stock of .22lr.
Farmers know how to make stuff - like moonshine. They also have the means and materials.
In a real SHTF the systems that produce and distribute our modern lifestyle will be disrupted or fail. Alcohol, cigarettes, and silver are worthless to hungry people.
Food first, then energy commodities like batteries, electricity to charge them(wind or solar), fuels of all kinds for vehicles , heaters and generators.
So what if you make electricity, charge batteries, ethanol, or booze, better than the farmer? What if the farmer you are dealing with is better at producing your ethanol producing grain better than he/she is at producing ethanol? Just remember that tribes were first founded by groups that included specialists. Grog might not have been able to track an animal worth a damn or throw a spear much farther than his shadow at high noon but Grog could produce a spear head sharper than any great hunter could dream of making. Did Grog have value in the tribe?
Than= I’d rather be rich than poor.
Then= I first became hungry then I ate.
There = She is there now.
Their = They have their things.
They're = They're going to the mall.
To = They came to the house.
Too = That's too bad.
You wouldn't make ethanol of grain. Without tractors there would be precious little grain at all. You would make it of fruit that had fallen to the ground - like in a farmers orchard. You might make a deal with him to pick up all the fallen fruit in exchange for some brandy or hard cider - or would it be too valuable as animal feed?
Said farmer would be busy with traditional cash crops that would store - potatoes and the like. Without the tractors I can see darn little you could offer him beyond your labour unless you have gasoline or diesel to run the machinery of a modern farm.
I agree with your point about skill and specialization - it's about the only thing keeping our Grog fellow from being the tribal vegetarian.
A decent solar power setup would have you charging batteries for radio and flashlights and all sorts of things. Many people will have a hard time without the few luxuries even a bit of electricity would provide.
I think those solar garden lights that are so cheap today would become a currency all their own.
Funny thing, most ethanol is made from corn. Vodka traditionally is made from potatoes.
I'm not saying there wouldn't be a profound shift in what makes the world go round for most people but a few would find a new niche that would please some farmers. I hope to be one of them.
I know a family that has a huge, fairly young, very tame, Clydesdale stallion. That horse will be gold (not to mention very damn happy) when the economy drops to nothing.
Than= I’d rather be rich than poor.
Then= I first became hungry then I ate.
There = She is there now.
Their = They have their things.
They're = They're going to the mall.
To = They came to the house.
Too = That's too bad.