There is a thread along these lines on the BC side as well; they are just throwing ideas out at this point.

I've been considering this option from a pre-shtf perspective for some time.

Any group would have to create a legal association of some kind (maybe shareholders?) to ensure no single individual or clique within the group can take complete control of the venture from a legal standpoint.

The challenge in a true prepping network is that we have to be able to trust those we are going to work with but we really don't know each other until those bonds are forged through hard work and cooperation. Some people might be offended by having to sign legal documents or to have a board that runs the association; the intent would not be to offend but to protect everyone's interests pre-shtf. Post-shtf would not need legal wranglings as we would all be working together to survive and then to thrive.

I add this to your thread because I am interested in the possibilities that cooperation offers but we would be talking a lot of money once it was all said and done;

structures 35k
land 25-250k+ (so much range depending on location)
supplies and machinery (seeds, generators, fuel, water/well, solar systems, etc...) ??$

Maybe it will become a topic of conversation at the next AB meeting in Cochrane?

Iam in the process of completing my underground shelt. Its is big enough for my family. There are many challenges doing this and i cant imagine building a community minded one. Family was hard enough.

Nighthawk: Can you enlighten us a little? What challenges did you find most daunting or troublesome?

Dangphool: I agree, the trust issue would be huge. And, you are quite right, it would come only through hard work and cooperation. Still, it is not too big a deal that it can't be done. A well organized and legally 'ass-covered' group could easily manage this project. I figure that costs (shared) would run each person about $4000 - $5000 each, assuming 20 people. Add your supply of food and you are looking at $10K - $12K each. Still a do-able figure. That, by the way gives everyone a pretty luxurious and highly secure shelter complex about 20 feet underground. You would have a tough time doing that by yourself for even 5-6 times the cost of doing it as a group of shareholders. Plus, there is safety in numbers. A well organized group makes the place far more defensible if it ever got discovered by roving hordes. Ideally though, the place would never even be on anyone's radar...they just won't know of it's existence.

I shall look at the BC thread this afternoon and see what I can glean from it. Thanks for your input. I appreciate it.

I agree that it would be a pretty darn big project and the only way to do it properly and to cover everyone involved is to do it as a "legal association" or business with each member being a full shareholder with equal rights, and clearly set out and defined rules and regulations as well.

A big project for sure but with the costs involved, especially when considering land in Southern/Central Alberta, it might be the most cost effective way to actual accomplish. I would be interested in more discussion with folks on seeing if the is a viable option for a group.

My small group (family ) is looking to do the same. We have the land but the county keeps a pretty good watch on the area and we don't really want to register that there is a small shelter out here. They were even hassling a neighbour who did a root cellar. It is a bigger project than just slapping it in under the cover of night. We still aren't thrilled with our ideas for air supply, anyone have any good/simple plans?

A underground structure comes with some issues to consider. Many, and increasingly more counties have bylaws relating to what is called "ground disturbance". Only diging done by contractors with trained personel on property zoned country, or country residential is allowed with a permit from the county. Unpermitted ground disturbance often carries fines if found out,for both the land owner, and equipment operator. Land zoned agricultural often has more latitude. I have a small backhoe, and found out this applies to where I live. I dont give a dam, and do what I want, but I am also not building large underground structures.
One thing to be aware of is if someone near by has applied for a business licence. Myself, and another neibour opposed a business licence being applied for by the local drunk, and coke head. I was very surprised to find that at the hearing the county laid out aerial photos of the surounding properties showing lots of detail. I was not happy to find out they had such detailed photos of my place. I was told that it is standard practice to take such pictures of near by properties, every time a business licence is applied for. Just something to be aware of if your doing some diging...

Look at GOOGLE map and satelite photos, saw my neighbour in her swimsuit 😯

As with any prepping we do there is always the question of ''who do we tell and include''. When we built our bunker we had to decide this. We have a large family so cost played a big roll, we have 7 kids from 12 to 24 yrs. Not all live at home. The rest of the family, brothers, sister, aunt,uncles etc are on there own. They are aware of the world problems and choose not to do anything. This is there choice and each to there own. The next issue was to bulid something big enough to store food, supplies and living area. What we have is not a penthouse but will provide all of that. Then we had the problem of nabours . As we prepared the excavation there was lots of lookers. Becouse of the location it wa easy to confuse them. I own my equipment so having it here was normal. As far as the RM knows it was a ''sewer issue'' aka SHTF lol. Now that the bunker is built, we nneded a power source other than grid. After tons of research we went with a 1600watt 3ph wind generator that charges a battery bank then convert to 110v by 2 3000watt inverters. This provides us with lots of power.I drilled a well that is underground in the bunk that has a hand pump as well as a electric pump. we are also tied into the well on our acrage. We have a small wood stove in the bunker although it stays warm,about 60F. The smoke from it goes to a above ground fire pit acting as a diversion. We had a problem with ground water so we put a dry well below the bunker with a solar pump to control the water level.the water from this could also be consumed if boiled or filtered. We have short term food as well as long term stored in a cold room area.Enough for our family for3-5yrs. We have a seed bank. We have medical supplies. A liberary--very important as talked about in another post. All of what i have done I have built myself. Iam a millwright which helps alot. I own my own company so that helps to. I have access to steel,and have my own excavator,bobcat and highway trucks. My company is a structural mover. I have spent about $25000 so far but iam not done. Not sure ill ever be totally done but i do feel preppared. Hope this helps. Any questions please ask. I have done thousands of hrs of research and work on this and willing to share with those who are doing the same.

Nighthawk

Nighthawk,

Was in lloyd Friday, A very good area for wind power, Noted 4 turbines on the Alberta side, one on a tower that must have been 90 or more feet high, maybe 50-80 km west of lloyd looking north of 16, maybe 5 km north, though I think all of the praries are good locations for wind.
1600 watts is significant. At what wind speed is that rating, and what is your blade diameter?

I use a 13 blade and a6ft diameter. The more blades the lower the wind speed needed. It will start generating at about 3-5 km and peak around 20 -25km. Check out Missouri wind and solar.They sell a good system at a good price. They arent as pretty as canadian tire ones but are much better. Cheap to have extra parts on hand.Good to keep a ph converter and blades on hand. Emp will take out the ph converter.Birds take out blades. Good batteries are important to.they are expencive but well worth it. Look for military surplus batteries. Normal car batteries dont like to be run down/charged up lots. We seem to have wind alot more than we have had in the past.Wind blows all night so when your sleeping not using power your system will full recharge by morning even in low wind-less than 10 km

Morning,

I have limited first-hand knowledge of living underground unless trenches, trench systems and bunkers of a military nature count.

However, for those who have to face political interference from their local government, I would like to suggest the following. If you have a single detached dwelling with a basement and an attached garage here is a possible solution. Now what I am about to suggest is not fast, it is not easy, but it should work. I recall running across this in reading or research awhile back.

Assumptions: Your yard is directly behind your basement. Your yard is not a swamp. Your yard is not solid rock. Your foundation is solid. You are committed to succeeding with this bunker idea and will not quit halfway.

In your basement, find the wall that leads to your backyard. Unless you have the knowledge to support your loaded garage, I will not recommend excavating under it. Too complicated. Now, on the wall to the backyard, Mark out an area about 4'x4'. You will want this to be between 1' to knee height off the floor. Ensure their are no utilities, water lines, sewer lines in this area of your backyard. Call those line finder companies, tell them you are thinking about putting in a inground irrigation system and need to know if there are any hazards in the backyard. This shelter will be small. Maximum 8 feet wide and between 10' and 24' long and maybe 7 feet tall. Not much space, but better than nothing.

Rent a concrete saw or a hilti-drill and cutout the 4'x4' square. This is your entrance. If your yard is being landscaped, that is a real advantage. You will now start to hand excavate your shelter. You will need a couple of shovels, a hand pick, pry bar and a means of hand mixing cement. And a supply of various pieces of wood to frame your concrete forms. Tunnel in about 3' before going deeper. If you can dispose of the spoils in your own backyard and build your yard up, you are lucky. Most will have to dispose of the excavated soil offsite. If you will be shipping the soil offsite, put an ad on Kijiji and find someone who needs fill. Get them to dropoff a trailer of drop-off bin that can be placed in your garage. Out of sight, out of mind. They you can fill at your own rate. And then call for pick-up when the trailer or bin is full. Repeat, until bunker has been excavated. Then square off corners. Frame in. and start to mix and pour your concrete walls. Then your floor. And finally your roof. You will have to do it piece by piece. As you will not have a concrete pump and cement trucks to fill your forms.

In the dark of the night and a few weeks of sweat labour you will have a convert bunker. When finished place a bookcase on a hinge system over the opening. A steel door behind the bookcase would be good too.

I hope that helps. Not a great system, but may work for those in suburbia.

Mountainman.

We have a small wood stove in the bunker although it stays warm,about 60F. The smoke from it goes to a above ground fire pit acting as a diversion. We had a problem with ground water so we put a dry well below the bunker with a solar pump to control the water level.the water from this could also be consumed if boiled or filtered.

Nighthawk

Brilliant solutions to a common problem! I really do like the smokestack 'disguise'. I presume your sewage/septic system is very distant to your shelter otherwise I would think twice about consuming the groundwater seepage into your sump. By the way, when you say 'dry well', I presume you mean a sump, right? From all that I can find regarding ground temperatures, the ground temp in and around Calgary at the 10' and below level is 56-57 constantly. Not toasty by any means but light insulation and a small source of heat should do very nicely year round.

You certainly do seem to have a good handle on this stuff. What a shame you are not closer. You would be an ideal choice of contractor for the burying phase of the shelter construction. After all, I do worry that any contractor we hire to bury our shelter might come knocking at SHTF time. You, with your own place to seek refuge, would not. The secrecy thing actually does bother me a lot. I have no solution to hiring from outside the group yet still maintaining secrecy. Anything short of drugging the equipment operators and blindfolding them for the trip to the remote location (and back), would almost guarantee a failure of OPSEC.

Thanks for your insight and commentary. I shall read more of your 'stuff'. I am sure there is a lot of cool, useful info in there for me to learn from. Thanks again.

Tunnel in about 3' before going deeper. If you can dispose of the spoils in your own backyard and build your yard up, you are lucky. Must will have to dispose of the excavated soil offsite. If you will be shipping the soil offsite, put an ad on Kijiji and find someone who needs fill. Get them to dropoff a trailer of drop-off bin that can be placed in your garage. Out of sight, out of mind. They you can fill at your own rate. And then call for pick-up when the trailer or bin is full. Repeat, until bunker has been excavated. Then square off corners. Frame in. and start to mix and pour your concrete walls. Then your floor. And finally your roof. You will have to do it piece by piece. As you will not have a concrete pump and cement trucks to fill your forms.

Mountainman.

With the exception of the concrete, it sounds like the way most POW's tunneled out of the POW camps. Very similar to how miners excavate and shore up the roof and walls. I think it might be more than a couple of weeks work though...lol. Still, a great solution for those who have a backyard and nowhere else to run to. At least it gets you under the ground and safe from EMP and CME. Would you also recommend an escape hatch located 1 1/2 times the height of the house away from the foundation?

I once read an interesting bit (I can't remember where now) that an escape hatch in a buried shelter should have the earth above it excavated in a funnel shape and the pit filled with sand. That way, the hatch could be removed, the sand would pour in and then it could be easily moved aside (providing your shelter was large enough) to provide a means of escape. It makes sense. If you didn't prepare the ground above the hatch similarly, you would be digging up into packed earth. Collapse would trap you, large rocks would impede your passage and it would sap your energy in an emergency. I like the sand idea.

Thanks for your input MM. You have lots of interesting stuff on here. I must say, I am liking this site lots!

Analog Man and Muskeg,

Yeah the permit thing and ground disturbance thing has me a little concerned too. Of course, you would want to accomplish this entire project with no interference from the local authorities for several reasons. Not the least of which is that you don't want those aware of the project to come knocking at SHTF time.

Like Nighthawk said, it could be called a 'sewer issue', lol.

There are lots of things to consider here...still, I am sure it can be accomplished with enough networking, hard work and cooperation.

Thanks, everyone.