Rifle Selection and Ammo Availability

I'm working on my 45/70 lever action being my main rifle, reloading is super easy, and there's nothing it won't take down, plus you can load foraging rounds with shot for small game. But, I will always have a 5.56 semi auto on hand too, well, and my .308...and a .22 or 3. lol

My selection process has been with the following factors in mind. Note that #5 addresses your point about getting it out to BOL.

1. Reliability in Canadian climate, little to no maintenance required. Nothing finicky.
2. Ammo availability - cheap and abundant. No rare calibers. No .50 BMG.
3. Range - an option for accurate 300-1,200m range, and an option for close quarters
4. Stopping power. No pistol caliber rifles. No pistols.
5. Ease of transportation - No 12 gauge shotguns -can't carry enough ammo. No 15 lb competition rifles. It also needs to have a sling.

And while I prep, I make sure that everything I own is still fun to use, in the event that nothing ever happens. Therefore, no restricted firearms (pistols, AR-15's, etc).

I've got:
A bolt-action rifle in a 7.62mm diameter caliber (I'm vague on purpose).
A very compact semi-automatic rifle that uses the same 7.62 ammunition.
A .177 caliber break-barrel air rifle.

In almost every SHTF scenario, whether extreme ROL or WROL, combat will only ever be my last resort. Travel in the dark just before sunrise. Hunker down whenever possible. Fire is only a psychological boost, it draws attention and it isn't necessary (provided you're properly dressed for the weather). Fight only when cornered. Stay off the roads - running is my hobby, so 3-4 times a week I run and explore the trails around the city and know the exits in any direction.

Hunting will also be my last resort. I've lived off fish, cattails, dandelions, plantains, berries, wild grasses and pine nuts for 3 weeks on a canoeing trip up in Wood Buffalo National Park, Alberta last year.

3. Range - an option for accurate 300-1,200m range, and an option for close quarters
4. Stopping power. No pistol caliber rifles. No pistols.
5. Ease of transportation - No 12 gauge shotguns -can't carry enough ammo. No 15 lb competition rifles. It also needs to have a sling.

And while I prep, I make sure that everything I own is still fun to use, in the event that nothing ever happens. Therefore, no restricted firearms (pistols, AR-15's, etc).

I've got:
A bolt-action rifle in a 7.62mm diameter caliber (I'm vague on purpose).
A very compact semi-automatic rifle that uses the same 7.62 ammunition.

RT, did you make a typo with 300-1200 m range? The possibilities of those weapons don't meet the criteria set.

- a 7.62 x 39 has a bullet drop of 118 inches at 500 yards with 27 inches drift in a slight breeze.
- a 7.62 x 51 has a bullet drop of 57 inches at 500 yards with 11inches drift in a slight breeze.
- a 7.62 x 54 has a bullet drop of 65 inches at 500 yards with a 10 inches drift in a slight breeze.
- at 918 meters, the best of them is between 200-250 inches drop

You don't hunt at these distances, maybe you show off at them, but that's it. Otherwise the room for error is too great and only wounding and losing your prey is very high. Best to rework your figures and practice stocking up a little closer.

The pellet gun is still the easiest, cheapest and quietest weapon to own. I believe the bigger the bang, the bigger the crowd.....

Why would you own a 308(which can shoot accurately over a great distance) and not slap a scope on it? Having another set of sights for close up though is even better...add a sling and removable tripod, and its versatile....but its likely 11-12 lbs.

Yet you can go with the 45/70 for up close and personal (40 " drop @300 yd), no scope and the bang alone will give most critters a heart attack.
With even 11" drop @ 200 yd, you can save your money and equal it's stats easily with your 12 or 20 gauge shooting 7/8 0z(385 grs.)rifled slugs

This is why I wrote my program on weapons statistics. (get it here http://internationalpreppersnetwork.net/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=5049 )

There is a lot of hype that goes with many guns. Most don't even consider the cost per bullet until they have to buy a few boxes and realize how expensive it is going to be to feed your new toy. I grew up hunting with a 30-30 for moose and deer. Now many state that I'm not respectable using such a low caliber on a moose 🙄 The 30-30 has likely killed alot more moose that any other gun ever made. It's just that the new hunters have something bigger and therefore get to claim they are in the know and wave some new book to prove their right.

Read the stats on your choice and compare the figures. Learn it's accuracy range and practice at those limits. Shoot the bullets you intend to hunt with and learn them well. MAster your rifle and if you can't, replace it with one you can.

So ya wanna see some Bullets?

http://herohog.com/images/guns/ammo/

Cool!! That cracked case looks nasty...

Here's another neat tidbit I found...

Don't sell that 410 too quick just yet. Check out this new round for both .410 and 45 cal http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/hornadys-triple-threat-410-shotshell . Read how they meet gov't specks and then get the .410 to utilize the barrels rifling in a 45 for greater accuracy.

RT, did you make a typo with 300-1200 m range? The possibilities of those weapons don't meet the criteria set.

- a 7.62 x 39 has a bullet drop of 118 inches at 500 yards with 27 inches drift in a slight breeze.
- a 7.62 x 51 has a bullet drop of 57 inches at 500 yards with 11inches drift in a slight breeze.
- a 7.62 x 54 has a bullet drop of 65 inches at 500 yards with a 10 inches drift in a slight breeze.
- at 918 meters, the best of them is between 200-250 inches drop

You don't hunt at these distances, maybe you show off at them, but that's it. Otherwise the room for error is too great and only wounding and losing your prey is very high. Best to rework your figures and practice stocking up a little closer.

Hi Knuckle, you're 100% correct. I shouldn't have used the word "accurate" for 300-1,200m distances. The farthest I've hit a plate was somewhere between 750-800m, and it took many attempts. I was estimating that the bullet would be able to go at least another 400m with a bit of compensation and a bit more trial and error. I misrepresented the realistic accuracy of my caliber.

While I have heard of and seen videos of shots over 1,200-1,500 yards with a .308, you're right that it isn't practical, nor is it repeatable.

If I may rephrase my sentence, it will read:

3. Range - an option for accurate 200-600m range, and an option for close quarters

I'm not sure where you inferred that I don't use a scope. My bolt-action has a scope, but still allows the use of the iron sights. 🙂

To be honest, I'm toying with the idea of switching to the 5.56 platform. There are a few bullpup designs in 5.56 that would make for great close shooting, and I recently used a friend's Tikka T3 Lite that was incredibly consistent at 300-400m. Switching to 5.56 would also mean a greater carrying capacity for similar stopping power. 5.56 may not have the same penetration as a .30 cal platform, but I don't think I'll be hunting steel deer with it anyway. The range can be better than 7.62 depending on the load.

I know some places don't allow deer hunting with .223, and I don't understand that. Maybe their hunters are inept.

One of the things I was really surprised with is the flat trajectory of .223. Shooting surplus chinese FMJ through my Robinson Arms XCR-l with a zero at 100yds, it hits the 200 and 300 yard gong at the range aiming dead center every time. The gongs are maybe 10" diameter. Also, it blows through my 3/8" mild steel pistol targets like nothing. 🙁 whoops....

5.56 may not have the same penetration as a .30 cal platform, but I don't think I'll be hunting steel deer with it anyway. The range can be better than 7.62 depending on the load.
I know some places don't allow deer hunting with .223, and I don't understand that. Maybe their hunters are inept.

I only mention this because of the steel deer comment, and I apologize for any offense if it was understood...

There are two types of penetration in this world, unarmored and hardened target/cover/armored.

The .3- calibers are cover chewers. They are also brush guns. The .223 suffers from splatter and deflection. The bullet weight means you have to really know what you're doing and be good with God to hit the target you want through a car windshield, it'll take a lot more of the magazine to get through the cinder blocks, and it's really not forgiving of corn fields or mixed oak-pine brush when you want to the deer to drop-drop without covering a fair bit of ground. The .308 is friendlier with that kind of thing. Much friendlier. The .30-06 has off-the-shelf powder loads and bullet weights to do anything you want it to do, effectively.

Many .3- (the beloved .30-06 and .308) are excellent distance-distance platforms. That is why the M14 stayed in use as DM rifles and sniper guns after the M16 and M4 came out.

When it comes to body armor in contact distances, 10-200 yards, commonly the .308 is a winner in wrecking that body armor.

When it comes to soft targets (humans, deer), round by round, the 5.56/.223 tends to OVER penetrate, and in some cases (by ammo type) relies on a fragmentation or tumbling effect to create a wound channel. If it isn't loaded properly or is a NATO FMJ ball, chances are good it will make a tiny little channel going straight through. Certain types of .3- will not go as deep, but they also open up a channel of shock and awe and deliver more WOW with the impact.

With old-style flack vests and Gen I and Gen II armor, at ranges of 10-100 yards, a 5.56 ball and 855 will actually penetrate the deeper than a 7.62 ball, as well. We haven't run that test since better plates and covering came out. ('Spensive test)

So really, penetration is kind of up for grabs, depending on what you mean.

Really, ammo type ammo type ammo type becomes pretty key, and almost never so key as when using a .223 on deer.
If you take the somewhat standard behind-the-elbow lung shot on a deer over about 100#, you and that deer are running a marathon, even with soft tips. I always liked head shots, because I want as much as possible off game after I carry it anywhere. Toward end of season/trip, if I'm carrying a .223, I aim for a heart-to-lung shot as the deer quarters forward. That shot is very difficult to line up from a lot of elevations. As a stalk hunter, that had good and bad points, but I was rarely trapped on a platform with no shot, at least.

The reliance on shot placement and shot selection, and the fact that people are kind of dirt bags as a species and can't always be trusted (hence finding deer with cheeks blown off or a rear-quarter spine shot with a .22 nobody bothered to finish off) is why some places restrict calibers to something that has a chance of dropping and making good use of an animal even if an idiot takes the shot, because idiots have paved the way and made everybody else look dumb.

You know, kind of like teaching to the lowest level student in the classroom, instead of making them go back and repeat a grade and teaching to the level the curriculum is supposed to meet on the way out.

Well said.

If your gunna kill something.. Kill it dead!!

I think for those who are considering a first gun, the obvious choice should be a 22. They are cheap to fire and at $23 for 500 rounds, you'll likely tire out before you run out. You get lots of practice at handling and reloading and then your comfortable when you move up into the larger calibers. The next best bang for your buck is the SKS. For $200, you have a rifle with more hitting power than the .223's 55 grain bullet by shooting a 123 grains instead. When buying bulk ammo, you can shoot for as little as $0.20 compared to $0.91 for the .223. That's 4.5 times the fun right there. You can only shoot 100 -150 yards accurately but that is the range most hunt at anyway. The weapon is non-restricted so you can carry it anywhere, not just to the range. And if you do the bulk buys, you can get this rifle thrown in for only $75 at http://www.marstar.ca

The downside is it's butt ugly(that's punny) and awkward when emptying the mag as it just dumps them out upon release . The upside is you can fix this for $130 for the tapco folding stock. Then you can add removable mags($30 for 5 Rnd - $50 for 30 Rnd) to make this rifle equivalent and even better in some aspects than the AK47, all while being totally legal. You will have to dump the pig sticker bayonet to fit this stock, but that lightens the rifle and reduces barrel flex(which the SKS and AK are known for)when warmed up after 10 rounds or so. Just remember, this is a very cheap but reliable rifle. It is a great dual purpose rifle to own without drawing attention to yourself when purchasing it either. Folding stocks always make government bureaucrats nervous as the weapon is also now more concealable. By buying it stock and doing your own mods, you have broadened your weapons skills and started down the path of the grey man too. By paying cash and now credit, your even further along. I think the Chinese versions are likely just as good but many who own the Russian or Polish versions will argue different, even though most of these are already half worn out when sold to Canada as they are pre-used.

The 308 is definitely the hunting caliber to do the job proper. Still not too expensive and swappable with the 7.62 x 51 round for lower cost long distance practice. Adding semi-auto feature while not sacrificing bullet speed leads you down the narrow path to the M-14 or the Norinco M305 which is the rifle Mrs.Prep is so passionate about. Seems almost anyone with military background prefers the M-14 as the all round choice. It is heavy already and when loaded down with scope and such, usually hits the 11-12 lb range quickly. It's not that fun to carry and likely will be slung over your shoulder often, but if you don't have a sh1t-eating grin after you squeeze the trigger, take up knitting instead... the basic rifle goes for about $600 right now and outfitted, many have $1000 to $1500 invested. This is the same as many spend on a bolt action anyways and I'd take the 305 first anyday. The real M-14 sells for about $3500 and shoots no different.

And as Mrs. Prep also stated in another thread, the pellet gun is often the most used rifle. Buy a good one just because of this fact alone.

My preference is for a .223/5.56 AR for many things, with .308 or .30-06 semiauto support (common calibers) if possible. Most military only shoot them in ball and green tip, which is part of why they leave hating them.
For somebody not reloading, the .30-06 is so versatile, has so many rounds available, it's hard to argue with, but I prefer a military caliber for availability.
The M1 Garand is as sexy as the M14. Besides the fact that she can't do partial reloads, anyway, and that pinging noise.

I actually don't mind the Rem 700 for overwatch, either, now that they make a detachable mag kit for it.
The benefit is that they're less expensive than the surplus guns, unlikely to end up recalled, can be readily and inexpensively customized, spare parts abound on my side of the border, and they are less likely to ever face government persecution even with a detachable mag.

My real deer gun and car stopper of choice, especially for beginners is a K98/98k 8mmM.
$150-200 USD sporterized (shortened, lightened, sometimes scope-ready) here, fabulous brush gun, plenty of reach for my distances, sturdy and resilient in ways even the AK dreams of, and big enough to easily inner-cast other calibers and to sabot for various shooting purposes.
Plus it's a bolt and a contained-well mag, which means it should be about last on any recall lists, but the ability for stripper clip feeding allows it speed other bolts don't always benefit from.
Downside is it doesn't strip down to clean with just the cleaning rod.
Upside is that while other guns are going to the table after a range date, Kurt and Kate look over and go "what's those funny rolls and brushes and stuff for?" and you tell them that other guns think it's been raining hard or Christmas EVERY time they shoot. 'Cause other guns are finicky like that.

There's a whole thread on "ugly gun" or "ugly guns" that has a lot of opinions and options, for these and for some others.
I'm pretty sure I tossed the M-N 91/30 hat in that ring as a customizable, affordable option with lots of at-home upgrades available and what is/used to be an affordable ammo (if overseas surplus; I like domestic), as well.
The thread might be worth checking out.