Mr. Momo, in a previous post you talked about before a threat and during an immediate threat. During an immediate threat, if you have time to get your gun out of storage, load it, call the police and warn the intruder, then you have enough time to gather your family and leave. What kind of questions do you think the CA is going to ask at your trial? In our current society we are not allowed to keep a loaded firearm in our homes. If you have time to get your gun and load it, you're not facing an immediate threat. With our current laws, you are better off with a baseball bat. After all, an unloaded gun is just an expensive club. When I talk of using two warning shots, I'm referring to a situation where society has collapsed. Then, if there is still a court system, you can justify having a loaded gun in your house and considering those circumstances the courts probably won't be too picky about warning shots and what order they came in. Unless there is a witness who can contradict you, there is no way they can prove that you are not telling the truth about the order that you fired your shots. As for firing in a safe direction, I have never had a gun in my hand and not known which directions were safe. If you don't know were the safe directions are, you have no business with a gun in your hand.
That last sentence wasn't meant for you, it refers to people in general.
Anyway, that's my rant. I do appreciate your insights and opinions, they show that you do put thought into your comments.
Those who are unwilling to defend freedom, will become unfree.
As the poet-philosopher Young MC once said; "break it down..." *queue funky baseline... 😎
Mr. Momo, in a previous post you talked about before a threat and during an immediate threat. During an immediate threat, if you have time to get your gun out of storage, load it, call the police and warn the intruder, then you have enough time to gather your family and leave.
Great point. It's impossible to explain all possible actions, under all circumstances in a few posts, but the principles I've tried to lay out start with avoidance. If I can get out, I will. I've said it in other posts, the best fights are the ones you never got in. However if you can't escape because the threat blocks your entry, or you would have to cross unknown and dangerous paths, my next fallback pre-shtf is to barricade myself and family and call the cops. I can barricade my room well enough in 10 seconds, then get the gun and call 911. The barricade only has to last as long as it takes me to get my gun, unlock it and load it. If you follow my suggestion of a unloaded pistol stored in a propper pistol safe with a loaded magazine, you should be in compliance with all laws until you decide to load the weapon.
What kind of questions do you think the CA is going to ask at your trial?
My primary concern is making it to trial. I consider it a success if I do, because I know I can only control the things I can control, and the things I can't control are not worth my time. Our stupid politics is out of my hands so I can only do the best I can with what I've got. Everything else is for my attorney to help me with. (Calling any crown attorneys/criminal defense lawyers to pipe in.) I have walked through countless scenarios in my head, and prepared exactly what I'd do before, during and after, and how I would explain it before a jury. I've run some ideas past two friends who are lawyers. (one criminal defense) If you thought my previous posts were long trust me you don't want to hear some of the other scenarios I though of. A suggestion for your reading list if you are interested is a pretty famous book.
http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Survival-Manual-Surviving-Economic/dp/9870563457
In our current society we are not allowed to keep a loaded firearm in our homes.
Correct and I wouldn't. My firearms are licensed registered and stored according to a strict interpretation of the law. I suggested a handgun with a loaded magazine that is not inserted into the gun complies with Canadian storage laws. You only load it when someone tries to break your barricade or give you ANY other reason to "reasonably" fear for your life. e.g. threats being yelled etc...
If you have time to get your gun and load it, you're not facing an immediate threat.
Great point, and it will probably be used against you in a court of law. However this is where the frequent use of the term "reasonable" comes in. In my previous post I suggested barricading and calling police. For example push a dresser up against the door, and plant your ass on the other side of the dresser. That should buy you time to unlock and load. I also believe a judge and jury of my peers will believe that an intruder breaking down my barricade constituted reasonable cause to fear greivous bodily harm or death.
With our current laws, you are better off with a baseball bat.
I respectfully disagree. Your primary concern is surviving the attack, and a gun is a better choice. I would rather deal with a jury and jail, than with confonting an armed attacker with a bat. I do have a bat in my room, but not for defending against attackers. It is fro destroying my windows in case of fire, giving me an exit. Or possibly an impromptu game of baseball. 😀
**before you ask about exiting by the window with the bat...yes I would always consider fleeing first and foremost, but like I said, how do I know no one is waiting outside? Jumping though a broken plate glass window and down a ways into broken glass also presents a "reasonable" fear of greivous bodily harm and death, so I consider it the preferred alternative under pre SHTF, but not obligatory.
After all, an unloaded gun is just an expensive club.
True. I recommend bullets. Unlocking the gun is not illegal. Loading it is, so load the gun only if you fear for you life. Loading your gun does break storage and safe handling laws but can be legally justified in defense of your life. Don't do it before. Consult a lawyer to be sure.
When I talk of using two warning shots, I'm referring to a situation where society has collapsed. Then, if there is still a court system, you can justify having a loaded gun in your house and considering those circumstances the courts probably won't be too picky about warning shots and what order they came in. Unless there is a witness who can contradict you, there is no way they can prove that you are not telling the truth about the order that you fired your shots.
Thanks for the clarification. If society collapses, all bets are off. Who knows what standards of law or lawlessness you may be held to. You may be given a medal for smoking a bandit, or you may have killed the mayor of Bartertown's brother and will be hung for treason. I don't worry about what I can't control.
As for firing in a safe direction, I have never had a gun in my hand and not known which directions were safe. If you don't know were the safe directions are, you have no business with a gun in your hand.
You make a great point, but " safe direction" is subject to interpretation. I don't know how well you know your environment, or how clearly you think things through, but in my home, to my knowledge there are NO safe directions only less dangerous directions. Like I said, a shot could cut wiring in your home and cause a fire, could overpenetrate or richochet, or hit a gas line. I haven't even introduced the variable of the type of weapon and ammunition. If you're shooting SS109 greentips from a rifle, you pose a different risk than hollowpoint handguns. For me it doesn't matter, there is no safe way to shoot a gun in a home, there is only less dangerous. Either way it is almost guaranteed to blow your ears out without hearing protection. I would only risk shooting in the house if it were to address an even more dangerous and imminent risk (killer intruder). My shooting in the house was only the lesser of two evils. I don't do warning shots ... ever.
Post SHTF, two things change:
1. I won't be the only fella in my home. one of my groups first rules is to do everything in groups of two or more. Work, home, garden, shopping always done in groups. Pairs at the least. When my group declares SHTF, more able bodies adults and a dog move in with me. Each detached house in my group gets roughly the same and we are all in the same neighbourhood.
2. My barricade technique buys me time to get a gun (as it does my guests in the other rooms) and as we can't count on the police to rescue us, it IS up to us to clean the house. I've recommended in my earlier post that a simple and effective plan is to communicate loudly to guard against friendly fire, to turn on all the lights and have flashlights and sweep the house together. As it is post SHTF, legalities don't concern me as much, but the plan still follows the same basic principles and morality.
All good points and well thought out.
One small piece of advise though. As regards to the loaded magazine, if you store a magazine with more than 2 or 3 rounds in it, you'll ruin it. Keeping a full magazine for any length of time will weaken the spring and cause your gun to jam. Whenever I was on an overseas tour our mags were always loaded. It was advised that we unload them once a week for a few minutes then reload.
When I store my guns I don't keep any loaded mags. If you want quick access I would suggest a revolver with a loaded speedloader.
Those who are unwilling to defend freedom, will become unfree.
One more tidbit of knowledge. As preppers we want to remain within the law and I wouldn't advocate otherwise. Having said that, there is the matter of gun magazines. This is something I learned from a Crown Attorny. If you have gun magazines that will hold more than what is allowed by law, disassemble them. As long as they are disassembled then all you have are gun parts and that is legal. If TSHTF and there is a breakdown in society and the law, you can reassemble the parts for use. I haven't spoken to anyone from customs yet, so I don't know about the legalities of bringing gun parts across the border. So until I know, I don't think that I'll go down and try. If I do go down for magazines, I'll be sure to carry a copy of the statute with me to show the customs officer.
In the mean time, stick with a .22, they're legal for more than 5 rounds and will do damage. Handy if you're facing more than 2 or 3 predators.
Those who are unwilling to defend freedom, will become unfree.
There are a lot of conflicting views on storing magazines loaded. Countless variables including substandard manufacturing. However IIRC the NRA did an authoritative test to this back in the 70's and found there was no issue. As to the military asking you to unload and reload you mags, I don't see hwo any spring deformation could be undone or even minimized with even days being unloaded. It may help to ensure dirt and the like doesn't get jammed, but it couldn't affect the spring.
I can't say for sure either way, but the better sources I've read say it isn't a problem as long as you buy quality mags. I'll see if I can fin the NRA study.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-semi-auto-pistols/109990-can-you-keep-magazine-loaded.html
One more tidbit of knowledge. As preppers we want to remain within the law and I wouldn't advocate otherwise. Having said that, there is the matter of gun magazines. This is something I learned from a Crown Attorny. If you have gun magazines that will hold more than what is allowed by law, disassemble them. As long as they are disassembled then all you have are gun parts and that is legal. If TSHTF and there is a breakdown in society and the law, you can reassemble the parts for use. I haven't spoken to anyone from customs yet, so I don't know about the legalities of bringing gun parts across the border. So until I know, I don't think that I'll go down and try. If I do go down for magazines, I'll be sure to carry a copy of the statute with me to show the customs officer.
In the mean time, stick with a .22, they're legal for more than 5 rounds and will do damage. Handy if you're facing more than 2 or 3 predators.
Please be careful about providing legal advice unless you are really sure. In this case your couldn't be more wrong. Another plug for a membership to the NFA, because I remember reading this recent article in the March April edition of Canadian Firearms journal. p. 17,18,19. They detailed the case of R v. Cancade who had disassembled magazine parts that he bought from the US, as parts, with the idea of pinning them to 5 as part of their re-assembly. He was found guilty and the NFA recommended against appealing because that would set us even further back.
The short version is magazines, even disassembled magazine parts that if reassembled, that can store more than the legally prescribed capacities are in fact prohibited devices. You will get charged, you will get a criminal record, you will likely lose your guns. Do not under any circumstances posses magazines or parts that could carry more than the legal limits of 5 for rifles and 10 for handguns.Please be careful.
http://blueline.ca/articles/purposive_approach_favoured_over_restrictive_one_i/
22s will also not punch through everything to kill neighbours or cars across the street.
22s can bring down big game if you hit the right spots
22s are nice and quite, just like shovels
.22lr are great as a secondary choice for hunting and improvised self defense, but you should have something more substantial. You can disagree with me, but I don't see cops or military with them.
Sorry about the advice on the extra capacity magazines. The info I got was a number of years ago and I forgot to take into account the fact that things (including laws) change over time. Apologies everyone.
Those who are unwilling to defend freedom, will become unfree.
.22lr are great as a secondary choice for hunting and improvised self defense, but you should have something more substantial. You can disagree with me, but I don't see cops or military with them.
Unfortunately they (.22) are the only guns we can legally get high capacity magazines for now. So at anything beyond practical shotgun ranges, .22s are our best bet for self-defence if there is no law. It's either that or get about 30 (5 round) magazines for your larger caliber weapon and practice changing them really fast.
Those who are unwilling to defend freedom, will become unfree.
.22lr are great as a secondary choice for hunting and improvised self defense, but you should have something more substantial. You can disagree with me, but I don't see cops or military with them.
22,s are in use by lots of military units and countries.
Special Ops, Canadian, US, British, Israeli, Russian, etc
there are subsonic 22s, special sub machine guns that are used by SAS and the Canadian SPEC ops.
22s will take down people if you hit them right, they will also take down Elk. They are very quiet, hard to detect the sound of a 22 even when you are close to the shooter. They are also cheap to train someone in how to shoot, same as a BB or Pellet gun.
22 cal pistols are used in special ops as well. That being said, yes most are larger calibre pistols or long guns, but the 22 has its home in special Ops. Another factor would be the type of 22 shell, hollow point, hardened point, lead flat point, they all have their own distinct uses and advantages.
Back to my other comment, a 22 is good in an Urban environment, you can get special 9mm or 22/shotgun shells as well, but maybe only in the US anymore. These little babies are quite nice, 22 casing but shoots buckshot out. Chances of killing attacker is quite limited, but they are a crowd pleaser, will not punch through the walls in apartments. 22s will not normally kill someone in the next room unless it goes through only very light material, so your family is safer, your neighbours are safer.
Is this a troll? ...Yeeeesssss .22lr is used round the world for highly specialized applications. It is a quiet close range assassins tool, not a defender of life and limb after SHTF. Your comment, while telling the truth, distorts it to the detriment of anyone looking to defend their home. They are deadly, but not reliably deadly enough. You say "if you hit them right" it will do it's job. Of course. But are you going to trust your family to you getting it right under all conditions? You guys should read about the mechanics of lethality from various calibres. .22lr is one of the weakest in terms of tissue crushing, hydraulic shock and exsanguination due to the low velocity and small wound channel. Add to the fact distance and clothing layers and you are further reducing your abilitites.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power
http://www.amazon.ca/Gravest-Extreme-Firearm-Personal-Protection/dp/0936279001
When was the last time you saw a police carry a .22lr? What rounds do our infantry use when stomping around in Afghanistan? What do brinks drivers carry with them? Everyone should have a 22lr but not for primary home defense. You can have very large magazines with a .22lr, but if you need very large magazines you're doing something wrong.
http://wstiac.alionscience.com/pdf/WQV8N1_ART01.pdf
http://forums.blueline.ca/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=24863
After studying hundreds and hundreds of police gunfights, authorities have determined that the average shootout takes place at ranges of 15 feet or less. In a very high percentage of those shootouts, both parties empty their guns without hitting anywhere near the intended target. This is one of the reasons that police and military weapons use high capacity magazines. Not because they're doing something wrong but because when your adrenalin kicks in, things change. I've heard a lot of men say that they wouldn't have a problem if they were in a kill or be killed situation. Nobody can know for sure until they are actually faced with it. I know how good I am with a gun but given the choice, I'd still go with the high capacity mag.
Those who are unwilling to defend freedom, will become unfree.
In a defense situation a lethal wound isn't good enough. It has to be an incapacitating wound to stop the attacker. A .22 is not going to do that.
no Mr.Mono,
I am not a Troll but I think you are to be honest.
I have over 30 yrs of using all kinds of firearms, lets see as I posted my background and you never have!
bush and farm life 5-23-
Army Cadets 12-15
Militia 16? 17? -19
Reg Force Military 23-30
Armed guard and K9 security for 2 yrs, downtown TO, Jane & Finch corridors as well as other areas
Reservist
Cadet Leader instructor - Army Cadets and St. John Ambulance Cadets for 5 yrs
reloaded my own cartridges for over 7 yrs.
Now my Fav in home option is the Shotgun, model 1200 defender, I prefer it over the model 1300 for a few reasons. Along with a large guarding type dog, with the gnashing of rows of very sharp meat tearing teeth, get the picture.
Again I state the obvious, the best weapon is whatever you have at hand, and your mind. See previous posts, again, what is at hand, your mind and your body, followed by getting a firearm out from the closet or anywhere.
Fav rifle is the CDN Forces FN C1 & C2
fav pistle is the CZ75 then the Model 1911 in 45 acp
there are a few other rifle cartridges that I do like, most are flat trajectory for in the Bush, and the .308 for open areas. Google or go to Wikipedia to see why I said that.
Your last post says you know they are used the world over but your post above said they are not used in any military, so which is it, did you google that or Wikipedia it?
Again, the 22, is a good in home option, in some circumstances, as I stated and the reasons why. I also posted about shell rounds for the 9mm to give another option.
I do not need to look up your links to statistics, I have lived them, period. You on the other hand are closed minded and think it is your way or the highway, just like you attacked a few members here since you joined.
NOW, I will never respond to any other post in this thread, again, especially yours. I may or may not ever respond to anything you have to say ever again, I reserve that option to myself. You come in the forum with an attitude of your way of the highway, your always right. I on the other hand come in with the attitude that I will help and share what I know and learn from others!
Wilderness,
I'm sorry you feel that way. I am confident in my opinions and I am prepared to defend them and reference them. They are not even "my" opinions per say. They are my synthesis of the leading sources of information I've been exposed to. If you take that to mean "my way or the highway" and get upset, that is your perogative. I make no apologies, and I'm tired of offending people with minimal experience claiming to be experts. If anyone is going to leave it will be me. I came here to have my ideas challenged and improved upon. All I've found are mallninjas and wannabes who give out very bad advice, often dangerous and even illegal. This board is dead because most folks who know their shit have gone somewhere else because they are tired of being badgered by mallninjas who need validation of their petty fantasies. I'll make you guys happy and leave because no one is offering me what I was looking for, meaningful critique and expertise. There are better boards elsewhere.
For the record, I do not base my posts on my experience that of course, is completely unverifiable, and pointless. Your argument is called an appeal to authority, and it is a false argument. Only a fool would make such a mistake.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html
Saying you don't need statistics because you have "lived them", doesn't lend you any credibility. Your only admitting that empiricism doesn't matter, and truth be damned if it disagrees with your own preconceptions. What are we to think when you say you are here to learn and share? Your post disagrees with itself.
Defending yourself with a .22lr as anything other than an improvised weapon is in the same category as mallninja with his smoke bombs and incidiaries; impractical and dangerous advice that doesn't follow common sense, nor does it follow the lead of those who use firearms to defend themselves in the line of duty. You're not arguing with me on this, your arguing with every police force and military the world over. The rest of your post mostly makes sense to me.
Good luck CPN, you guys are going to need it.