Threestorms.

Our response is indeed pathetic. One just need look at a simple process of getting people out of China to once more confirm the obvious and that is, we are weak in and on many critical areas. The Minister would not answer a reporters very, very simple question on planes capacity to carry people out. Not how many were trying to get out, but simply how big is the plane/ how many bums will fit! Also, no answers about when second plane would be there. Here’s the thing, I am guessing the plane will not be big enough to handle first load and they would/ should know this as well. So he should have been able to say, yep, the second plane will be there an hour or five after the first one leaves so they can, IF needed, fill it up with whatever remainders there are. I somehow think, we may need a second plane, so even if not needed here, then maybe next week in some other country! So have the bloody thing ready to go, it’s not like we haven’t pissed away money before.

Here’s another point. It’s taken us this long to supposedly get the paperwork in place, so if you think you have 304 people and I am just guessing here, the first plane can only handle 250, well it doesn’t take a genius or alleged expert in mathematics, bio chemistry, logistics or engineering to know you may be short! Simple thing to do. China is jerking our chain like a thug of a master with a puppy. Rest assured if we said we had miss Huawei on a plane, they would sure move their tush to make the paperwork move along faster. I digress because this site is not political, but it is crucial to understand the political dynamics involved in keeping us safe! That’s the key to what I try and promote. I am not an expert in bio, military, gardening ... this or that. However, I have been involved in a wide range of security events, practices .... and logic, lies, laziness, stupidity, bribery, treason, terrorism, greed, ..... are all things that are common and must be honestly addressed. If one doesn’t, then the plan has holes and if put under stress, will at some point fail. Very simple.

As Heli stated in a previous post, we have reduced our military budgets and one can agree or disagree with that. Health care, road, education.... must all be factored in, and I wouldn’t want to see money spent here or there if not needed. I for one believe that there is waste that can be eliminated but that doesn’t mean I do not want a strong and this is key, “effective “ military force in place. A poorly funded or configured military will have an impact not only on some foreign initiative but domestic preparedness as well.

We must put aside our links, love, present or past involvement with law, fire, medical, military... and look at the present with an honest mind and open eyes. Last week, the gov couldn’t even answer the simple question on where or even how these folks from China were going to be put up. Come on, it’s a no brainer, IFFFFFF you know what you are doing or perhaps had the courage to simply state the facts. Plans for such events and a great deal more, must be in place long before actually needed. NON of this is new. NON of it at all. So when one flounders around like a fish on hot sand, it’s not good. Now some will say, things are in place. Well if true, then it reveals poor or weak leadership skills. An example would be a good sized military force, well equipped, with well trained soldiers but just sitting in a foxhole because the captain is curled up in a ball and afraid of making a decision. So what often happens is, either the troops are overrun or the captain, in a sudden need to appear to be in charge, has his troops leap from cover and into some dumb form of attack / over the trenches boys! And mowed down like sitting ducks. Dumb, dumb and dumb.

The aggravating thing is that due to a clear absence of leadership and resources, citizens will be left hanging and also under some form of draconian control measures. An ill prepared government will either collapse from chaos or try and use the only tool available to them and that would be strict curfews, travel restraints, monetary measures etc. not shocking, because one sees it done all the time around the world, we have just been lucky ( and yes, sometimes with some good counter measures) so far and have avoided large scale pain. If it takes four days to send soldiers with shovels to a snowstorm stricken city, imagine 10% of working population sick.

As we have almost zero reliable formation, will never be told the truth on status or true readiness levels... one is in the dark and trying to hedge their bets. One can have confidence in our government and the tooth fairy or do what they can manage with resources they have to work with.

The key to survival is being able to assess the situation. One can have all the kit in the world and still succumb to hyperthermia, decide to go to a bar in a bad area, speed into a corner on ice with a two wheel drive and bald summer tires... Our brains are the single most important tool we have, the second tool and this is a hard one, is to be honest with oneself when assessing the situation. You can be smart, but not listen to that inner voice that says, move or stay put.

As to what is going on these days, “sounds” like we have few actual cases in the west. Now that’s an odds game and can balloon out of control in two days. Right now, the thing about the spread that concerns me the most will be anyone with means in China, leaving. We are dumb in still allowing people in from China but perhaps an even larger issue may come into play. What happens if a person in China says maybe I can’t get into the US ... but I can get into Vietnam, South Africa, Middle East,.... buddy goes to a nice five star hotel and boom, people in India... are now infected. How fast can that spread and if as is the case right now, everyone is solely focused ( or not even) on people from China and still allow other nationals to fly in, then what?

These are the types of things that can easily occur and given our sad inability to say no Chinese nationals, what makes anyone think, we will say no to India, Africa,......... If the rate of spreading the disease is as high as they claim, imagine a government not wishing to offend the voting base of Toronto for a few weeks! The horse will have long since bolted the barn and it will take some time before recaptured. Right now, that’s my largest concern, the spread to other nations and our open border, be happy and positive mindset.

It’s not just how poorly we are testing or asking to self report, it’s the fact they are even allowed in, in the first place, that may be the biggest threat

Heres a perfect example on my post below.

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2020/02/05/coronavirus-cruise-ship-carrying-3700-quarantined-after-infection-outbreak-aboard/

This in addition to the seven thousand cruise ship in Italy. It’s childish or naive to think people will not try and find ways out or simply refuse to cancel a vacation and gamble they will be ok. Have there been any cruise ships planes that have landed in populace countries with people who were carriers but we do not yet know about? I don’t think China is taking all the measures they are because they believe it’s a bad case of the stomach flu. 😆 They know the truth. Yet we dither and are afraid of offending other nations or hurting tourism. Good grief

This one just cracks me up! Possible? I think there’s a very good chance someone screwed up
https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3871594

Doesn’t look like a dyslexic mix up in one stat of a few, no you have a number of very different numbers. Who is ten cent one may ask.
Kinda looks like a BIG tech giant. In dear China
https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/keywords/tencent

Again, never mind WHO experts who go one week from saying all is well to some lame panic mode / no real bite as to what they do or request to be done, other than wash hands, blah blah, China is doing well....any WHO members in China cou t8 g the bodies? 😆 😳 😆 😆 Why isn’t CDC allowed to send in support? Would seem logical if you were open. And if just some bad cases of the flue, why tens of millions quarantined!

Nope. It’s a potentially dangerous joke, I you can call the info coming out a joke

Putting all the arm chair expertise aside, the Coronavirus is a fraction of the concern that the flu is and to date seems to be a bit of an over reaction for the efforts allocated to it by the general public. I'm not saying be flippant, but the risk to date is negligible.

https://www.livescience.com/face-mask-new-coronavirus.html

I think if people would be as militant about the flu every year there would be a lot less death and severe illnesses.... The viral count is low, its not a super infectious disease to begin with, its not made a dent in North America. Experts are on this, far more experienced and knowledgeable then any of us on this forum....

Wash your hands often, limit your exposure in public to those that are sick, use hand sanitizer if you cant readily wash your hands, dont touch your eyes, mouth, nose or ears with your hands... If we do that...i think we all have a real good chance of surviving this outbreak. 🙂

Putting all the arm chair expertise aside, the Coronavirus is a fraction of the concern that the flu is and to date seems to be a bit of an over reaction for the efforts allocated to it by the general public. I'm not saying be flippant, but the risk to date is negligible.

https://www.livescience.com/face-mask-new-coronavirus.html

I think if people would be as militant about the flu every year there would be a lot less death and severe illnesses.... The viral count is low, its not a super infectious disease to begin with, its not made a dent in North America. Experts are on this, far more experienced and knowledgeable then any of us on this forum....

Wash your hands often, limit your exposure in public to those that are sick, use hand sanitizer if you cant readily wash your hands, dont touch your eyes, mouth, nose or ears with your hands... If we do that...i think we all have a real good chance of surviving this outbreak. 🙂

Well as the old expression goes, we will just have to wait and see what happens. I have more then said my piece on whether our government and others are doing what can be done and possible outcome if they don’t and the virus takes hold here. Some trust alleged experts, you know the ones, the good doctors who prescribed smoking for pregnant mothers and all the “exerts and government types” who said smoking was safe. Then there was the Thalidomide experts.! Wonder how They feel about all the experts as the look at their limbs or pictures of those who have passed. Experts who at the time believed they had science and fact on their side!

Let me be clear, I have and will continue to make mistakes and guessing the experts in this or that will continue to do the same. Just remember those who said screw you to the captain of the titanic and got on a life boat while others listened to the band Before the music was drowned out by the last screams and sounds of the “ unsinkable ship”, sinking to the bottom. But we all have to do what we think is right and Listen to those we trust with our very lives and those we in turn love.

Wishing everyone best of luck and good success in their preps.

Clarence, I know you’ve been critical of the government’s response, especially with regards to the evacuation of Canadian citizens in Wuhan. I’m not the government and have my dislikes and distrust like any average guy, but I know a thing or 2 about flying and stuff like that. There are some key factors that may delay that response:

1) how hard was it to find a charter capable of transoceanic flights, willing to go through the pains of losing said aircraft for decontamination after?
2) how hard was it to fin a crew willing to be exposed?
3) arranging diplomatic clearances with China would likely take a while.
4) finding out what medical team needs to be on board.

But probably more important...

5) with the quarantine, what is manning capacity at Wuhan airport to handle air traffic (ATC, ramp handling, refuelling...)?
6) what is the airport capacity if there are Chinese military aircraft there, cargo load of supplies for the quarantine zone, etc... parking spaces on any given airport is limited, Wuhan may well be at capacity.
7) are any countries restricting their airspace for traffic coming from Wuhan (wanting to avoid dealing with a plane load of possibly contagious people if the plane has a malfunction and an emergency landing is required)?

This is just off the top of my head and there may be lots of other reasons why this plane is delayed.

Not throwing rocks here, just adding an input to the conversation.

I work in an ER, and I’m the only staff nurse on the infection control committee. I will NEVER put on a hazmat suit for this virus. It’s a waste of money.

The a cheap ass isolation gown more then does the job. The virus will only live on clothing for 20 mins give or take.

A surgical mask with face shield will cover it. As a precaution we are using N95 masks but with the full knowledge it is over kill.

Wash your hands, don’t touch your face and you are far ahead of most.

In committee meetings I can’t even count the number of people that chew their pens, rubs their eyes and nose or mouths. Same on the unit. Drives me mad. I rarely ware masks, and I never get sick at work..... I wash my hands, wash my dishes before they got back in my bag and I never touch my face unless I have clean hands.

Clarence, I know you’ve been critical of the government’s response, especially with regards to the evacuation of Canadian citizens in Wuhan. I’m not the government and have my dislikes and distrust like any average guy, but I know a thing or 2 about flying and stuff like that. There are some key factors that may delay that response:

1) how hard was it to find a charter capable of transoceanic flights, willing to go through the pains of losing said aircraft for decontamination after?
2) how hard was it to fin a crew willing to be exposed?
3) arranging diplomatic clearances with China would likely take a while.
4) finding out what medical team needs to be on board.

But probably more important...

5) with the quarantine, what is manning capacity at Wuhan airport to handle air traffic (ATC, ramp handling, refuelling...)?
6) what is the airport capacity if there are Chinese military aircraft there, cargo load of supplies for the quarantine zone, etc... parking spaces on any given airport is limited, Wuhan may well be at capacity.
7) are any countries restricting their airspace for traffic coming from Wuhan (wanting to avoid dealing with a plane load of possibly contagious people if the plane has a malfunction and an emergency landing is required)?

This is just off the top of my head and there may be lots of other reasons why this plane is delayed.

Not throwing rocks here, just adding an input to the conversation.

Well, while I am not a pilot and would never profess to know details, I do see US and other flights occurring, but let me try and address your very logical questions as best I can in an email. Now if I was engaged to do an audit on our response, I would be calling in numerous sources so I could find an exact and often very embarrassing response to the person flapping their gums with excuses ( NOT YOU,,,,,,, but twits we see making excuses)

1. Charter flights are not hard to find, they work for profit and trust me when I say a government purchase order to sideline a plane for a week, a month, or six months is simply a matter of money. You want a plane? No problem, here’s the cost!! Super simple. Now keep this in mind, this issue/ international viruses is NOT new! So a half rotten head of cabbage could and should expect this to occur and have pre- approved venders on speed dial. Easy, I know, I’ve been on short list to receive a call. Now here’s another one, where the flick are our military planes? I hope we have some! So in my world of experience with gov, there is zip excuse. Now it is true, you may at times wonder where their head is, but when you want to move and reach out to right people, lots can be done real quick.

2 having been in meetings where people were advised on the need to have very, very serious BIO hazard evacuation plans in hand before going overseas, it’s not out of the realm to have said staff ready. Of course one needs to have a brain in advance, hire the right planes and crew ( I think i may have a card in my office for said type of plane..) when I mention bio, I refer to real nasty things, blood from eyes, face all contorted, frothing at the mouth nastiness. .. get the idea? Not what we see occurring today, so if silly me knows who to call to extract people in a foreign land with crew and med team all secure to handle far worse, I pray to god our nations leaders do. Now once more, in addition to private sources of planes and personnel who can do this, where is our military? Surely to crispy we have suits and obviously the medical staff who can do this in a snap? If not, then that’s one hell of an embarrassment!

3 well seeing as other nations have managed to do it and we continually hear about how loved we are and are such smart people, getting a nation who we are in a trade deficit to get one, two, twenty people out of 1.5 billion to process some exit papers, shouldn’t be to difficult. Hell, we have a few folks in foreign affairs that one would think could help the poor Chinese with some forms. Again, other nations are doing it, why not us!

4 well seeing as we are quarantining these folks, we obviously have doctors in the military who will be handling this in CFB Trenton! Sort of ties into issue of simply dealing with far worse bio risks, risks, known to anyone with a brain for decades and working in this field every day.

5 no idea, but bet you a grand I could find an answer within a few hours to a day. If not, what about other airports nearby and very simply driving folks to the alternative airport. Guessing the Chinese have some trucks, ambulances... Again, if one can chew gum and walk at the same time, it’s not hard to figure out alternative airports.

6.we were told evening flights only, so sounds like that was addressed, just need to get there and they were supposed to be able to accommodate. If not then, see #5 and adapt, the old adage of if there is a will, there is a way.

7 guessing every nation has some form of military bio setup. If a plane had mechanical issues, they land, military keeps them in plane or bus, tents on tarmac......Vietnam, Australia....should all have this and someone like you who knows their stuff would be someone I would reach out to, to make arrangements for the off chance something changed. So you, being smart, would know who to call in Vietnam, Australia and as is done every day in certain high end fields, get ones ducks lined up in a row, in advance, just in case. You work on this and Tom dick and Mary work on their issues. It can and is done, every second around the world. None of this is new at all to pros. When your at the top, you work with other top people, where money... is not an issue. One simply gets the job done.

Heli, please do not take any of the above as a reflection on yourself. I think we can see who on this board has or is working in specialized fields. Two things jump out for me on this file. Our people leading the charge are way out of their league or are frozen. And China is jerking our chain with their assistance. If they wanted to and we had someone asking the right people, they could snap a finger and papers and access to resources would occur real fast. In dictatorships or fiefdoms like China, People move REAL fast when ordered to do something, because they know their life is on the line if they don’t. So if they wanted to help and we had capable people, things would happen.

Look, the minister couldn’t answer how many bums the plane could handle., for me that was a clue someone was lying or to be Cute here, perhaps not sure, aware, misspoke blah blah blah. Low and behold we could only handle 200.. and we knew at the time / Tuesday, that we had 304 requests. So a pumpkin would know that the second plane would need to be sent right after the first one. We now hear it’s Monday ( providing of course there’s no wind, rain, a few June bugs. You likely have access to flight data, was there any other planes in the air when ours was supposedly unable too? No idea but given the lame plans and excuses, it would not surprise me in the least, we goofed with some component of the plan.

I work in an ER, and I’m the only staff nurse on the infection control committee. I will NEVER put on a hazmat suit for this virus. It’s a waste of money.

The a cheap ass isolation gown more then does the job. The virus will only live on clothing for 20 mins give or take.

A surgical mask with face shield will cover it. As a precaution we are using N95 masks but with the full knowledge it is over kill.

Wash your hands, don’t touch your face and you are far ahead of most.

In committee meetings I can’t even count the number of people that chew their pens, rubs their eyes and nose or mouths. Same on the unit. Drives me mad. I rarely ware masks, and I never get sick at work..... I wash my hands, wash my dishes before they got back in my bag and I never touch my face unless I have clean hands.

Keeping hands away from face is a bugger. You do it and say sh*t, you knew you just screwed up but that’s it. Best of luck in the ER!

It took years of training, but I rarely mess up any more. Getting Gastro from work and going down with 27 staff and 19 patients .... knowing you got sick because someone’s poop got in your mouth..... you learn 😮

Q- "Are you prepping for the coronavirus?" Yes, time to top up my supplies from toilet paper to beans to garden seeds!

This is a good reminder that things can happen. From job loss to tornadoes to viruses..it is comforting to know that you are as well prepared as possible to weather any storm! LOL Supplies and transportation are never a certainty and it is easier to gather slowly and maintain your ability to be self-sufficient if the need arises.

This is a good reminder that things can happen. From job loss to tornadoes to viruses..it is comforting to know that you are as well prepared as possible to weather any storm! LOL Supplies and transportation are never a certainty and it is easier to gather slowly and maintain your ability to be self-sufficient if the need arises.

Bang on, with most issues, the basics remain the same. Being able to stay home is one of the most important ones and unfortunately that means money to pay housing, bills, meds.... so financial freedom is not something to be overlooked. But having food stocked up not only takes care of obvious needs but allows one to use what money you do have, to pay for the other things and maybe permits you to stay home in the first place.

And yes these real or false emergencies are a blessing in disguise, even the current Monday morning quarterbacking is productive because we list the what if’s, strengths and lames responses. It makes us think and analyze

This forum like life is full of people with all manner of experience and personal knowledge and even when we disagree, we learn by testing our own thoughts, pride or prejudices.

So let’s embrace these events and build upon them, because if not today, one day may come that they are indeed needed. And IF nothing ever does occur, we are still stronger from the knowledge and perhaps even having made ourselves better physically fit etc .

Rock on

no, not until someone I know has come down with it, even then there is nothing I need to do other than stay at home and that is where I like to be anyway.