Its been a week since I said anything controversial. I must be jonesing. Why else would I come on here and say openly, " If your Plan A for surviving an Economic collapse is to run out into the forest and live off the fat of the land, Bambi and berries...Bring plenty of tobasco sauce to eat the only source of meat that will be overpopulating the forest. Long Pork."(Soilent green is people)
No. We cant start there. Preppers seem to have their own version of cognitive dissonance. When I talk to non prepping people about that we are in the middle of an economic collapse, the starter round of several more, numerically inevitable disasters that we will all experience over the next generation...Well, you guys know the glazed over stare I usually receive. How could it be true when the stores are packed, rush hour traffic still clogs the road on our way to the jobs that we hate, The news is telling us of the recovery...and homelessness is only something that happens to Bad people. The credit cards are maxed and life goes on.
Preppers can have the same Beer goggles on. We learned to "Be Prepared" as boy scouts. We slept with the SAS survival manual under our pillow. Your food storage will run out, right, and Dave Canterbury is now calling his trapping series "Sustainable survival" and damn those hippies. There is more dear in north america today than when we invaded this land. The sides of the road are paved with suicidal porcupine corpses and squirrels playing chicken. Our historic hunter gatherer gene is screaming in our heads that our dead end job and packing the rugrats into the minivan to get them to soccer practice is just wrong, Wrong, WRONG! So we fantasise about that day when we can command the wife to get the guns, camping gear and condoms. We're going on a hunting trip and never coming back.
So, When I tell you that in a fast Crash, the forests will pretty much be swept clear of everything with a heartbeat within a month...or in a Slow Crash that the country will already be poached out over a period of decades, long before, you decided to flee. That means EXTINCT. Not, They will come back in a few few years. I mean GONE. Done. Never to return.
Now at about this point, Many of you will be fighting to secure the cognitive beer goggles o dissonance as securely to your head as possible so you can comfortably numb out and return to the plush security of your bugout blanket. A few will hang on until I start bringing up numbers before driving chopsticks into their ears...but what I am waiting for is the bunch That will become violently enraged. Let the insults begin. When someone get furious with you, the facts and numbers cease to matter because you are not confronting reason. You've challenged someone's BELIEFS. This too is C B G D ( thats cognitive beer gog..........etc)
Now, their are a few of you out there that know that many areas became extinct of game during the Great Depression. There have been a few people that have been shouting that from the roof tops but Im not sure that the people that know that fact really GET IT. If they did there would be a rather rapid change of strategy. Its hardest to adapt to for those that already have a deer in the freeze beside the couple of geese and fond memories of the fishing trip you just took your kids on. Being an outdoor survival guy like myself, it has taken a few decades for me to let go of my entire survival system and start over.
My first brush up against this fact happened a few years back when having to dodge a flock of Turkeys on my Motorcycle. I assumed that they had escaped but someone informed me that they had just been reintroduced to the area after going extinct during the GD. I realised, that in spite of my bush living, I had never seen a wild turkey before. This happened again recently wile visiting a national park down south in the 4 corners region of the States. Big horn sheep had just been reintroduced....because they went extinct during...you got it, The great depression. There was also the long dead small voice of Mel Tappan in my head refering to these folks as Backwoods Batmen and that you use up as much calories tromping through the forest than you get from the animals. The final nail in the coffin happened after I read "The Fallacy of Bugging Out" series recently talked about here by Gravlore, before going on a trip to Cuba. For those that missed it, here it is again.
http://survivalacres.com/blog/the-falla ... gging-out/
http://survivalacres.com/blog/the-falla ... t-part-ii/
http://survivalacres.com/blog/bob-the-reality/
http://survivalacres.com/blog/survival- ... -the-test/
http://survivalacres.com/blog/surviving-the-horde/
Wile I was squirreling away survival strategies of the Cubans...and soaking up the sun and Mohitos... those articles kept going round and round in my head. I should have known...because they made me really angry.(see Beliefs) He never talked about real bug out situations damn it. Long Story short, there in the midst of skinny horses, garbage piles and sunshine, I finally pulled my beer goggles off....and have been a bit of a broken record since.
Lets just say that the population has increase a teeny tiny bit since the great depression. Something like 75% of the canadian population now lives in cities. A few of us remember grandmas huge garden and grand dad dutifully out there with the rotor tiller each spring. They had seen hunger before. Few have any idea of what food really entails any more. The animal population has been brought back by...Urbanisation...Suburban lawns....and hugely regulated CONSERVATION. Take the rule of law out of the picture and a generation raised on Rambo and Les Stroud. What do we get? Everyone has the same bad plan. Every Survivalist, every one who have ever browsed through a survival manual, every redneck, every Boy Scout, everyone that hunted with their dad and grandpappy, every gun owner that has never hunted, every one that read a book by Tom Brown...or Ayn Rand, everyone that thought Red Dawn was cool and thought highschool jocks were better than Spletsnaz, every one that watched Bear Gillis or scowers Youtube for paintball survivalism, every nutbar that listens to Coast to Coast radio or hangs off the words of Glen Beck or Alex Jones Town, every hippy that read White Fang or Into the Wild wile high and flint knapping a beer bottle, The entire Republican party, the majority of preppers and a large percentage of people reading this blog....ALL HAVE THE EXACT SAME PLAN AS YOU. Its going to be crowded. Im going to totally ignore the forest fires that follow and shootouts with pissed off Park Rangers over the last dead, lawn crack addled, elk in Banff.
These are the first numbers I crunched last year and you hear me repeat alot. I could only find American Numbers on this. There are about 25 million dear in America. 300 million People. I give the dear a week. You don't even have to kill them all before you face breeding problems and herd collapse. The majority of the canadian population lives within a 2 hour drive of the boarder so I figure the numbers translate about the same. By the way, Edmonton does not count as being north enough to really matter....and big trophy deer are not what we are talking about here. Most small deer don't have much more meat on them than my German sheppard, Husky cross. We've finished off a dear over the weekend with guests. Ive even seen freinds take deer by motorcycle.
Lets bring out the large but lesser animals (Most of these are in parks) and start using canadian numbers. 80 thousand pronghorn. 72 thousand Elk. 443 thousand black bear(my preference because its the only one that has enough fat so you don't starve to death wile being full on lean meat) 500 thousand to a million Moose. Now we are getting to something usefull with a big assed animal. Aren't they a danger in Newfoundland? OOPS, no luck for me. They are already extinct in my area. Don't make me count beavers and Rats and other single meal snacks like kittens. Look the rest of the damn numbers up yourself.
OK. I could keep badgering this issue but the one or two of you that haven't slipped into prepper catatonic shock or forming a noose for me probably are crunching those numbers in your head and it will take a wile to think though the implications. Feel free to take a wile. It took me three decades and 5 attemps at living off the land. OH, I had so much more wonderful sarcasm I had hoped to share but I am a one finger typer and have tuckered myself right out. Something to keep in mind if those numbers still seem OK to you...when it comes to survival hunting, animals are like crack. You cant eat just one...and the price goes up each time. It ends with being emaciated and doing unspeakable acts in the passenger side of strangers vehicles for sandwiches. 😮
I have a Tactical Harness and I have a Tool Belt. The Tool Belt is more Useful.
I thoroughly read and appreciate your post C5. Yes, I can do the numbers.
There were ten Moose gifted from Canada to New Zealand in 1910 that were released into the South Island Fiordland rainforest for breeding. The last recorded moose was shot in New Zealand was in 1952, bringing about their extinction. Even well after post war, the depression of the 1930’s, and into the 1950’s, it was still a time of great hardship for some here.
I’ve read a number of articles about food shortages and survival in NZ during the depression & war times, I’ve also heard the horrifying stories directly from my late grandparents when I was very young. I also know how they had to defend their livestock and food gardens from those who were starving, or did deals with them – some food/shelter in exchange for labour on their farms, or other services.
Prior to that in the early times of settlement here (which wasn’t that long ago), trading in food, timber, tools, and sexual acts was common place. On the paternal side of my pedigree one of my Irish convict ancestors in Australia was sent to NZ to help “get things under control” and lower the number of food eaters. Up until the mid 1800's human cannibalism was still fairly widespread for the purpose of either sending a powerful message to other tribes, or in times of famine.
I believe history will repeat itself in time.
Great posts so far. Like many of us on IPN we have bug outs for a 3 day NORMAL emergency. Watching Man woman wild and shows like that are a good place to see how rough it can be. It involves 2 people of good fitness levels standing themselves and living off the land. It looks extremely hard for the couple (let alone a family) and they even got bailed out by calling it quits into their scenario. Bug out with 1 person that is HIGHLY experienced is doable. That aint me man.
Wow, you must be fun at parties...lol...I am kidding of course, as I would probably enjoy debating/discussing items with you face to face as opposed to a keyboard.
I too, originate from NS, but have relocated to what I hope are greener hunting pastures out west in BC (19 years now).
I think you make some very good sense on items you speak of and you have obviosly done some math here. I guess my only kink in the armor of your numbers, is that they are extraordinarily high. Of every 100 or so folks I know or am in contact, I only place the number of maybe a few percentage points that are actually capable of hunting and being successful (I also think the number of successful hunts are much lower in my home province then they are out here). That said, I think the survival timeline with this sort of food, while limited in duration, is a bit longer and years could be had.
After it is all said and done though, if something of this magnitude does happen (I am a bit more of an optimist that it will not...err, hopefully) then regardless of the duration of survival, the end will be close for most of the population, prepper or not.
You do paint a very real scenario of the bleak future if this scenario plays out, though I think survival will be longer and hopefully long enough, if not, then it is all for not regardless eh.
Good read (rant) though and appreciate the fact that you acknowledge that Beer goggles are worn by many...it really has to be though doesn't it, as the other option is giving up before the fight has begun.
Cheers
OffThePath
PS, Prepping means a lot more than hunter, you need to be versed in gardening, wild foods, etc, and having a plan that gets you away from large centers...not so much that you'll avoid all conflict, but that you are remote enough that it means fewer folks actually make it to you. IF and when things go so wrong, then Bugging out is your only real chance, and you better have some folks with skills in many disciplines that you call friends.
Thanks Grace. I never met a New Zealander I didnt like. My previous partner was from Austrailia. When I met her, I looked her in the eye...and said I never met a New Zealander I didnt like. lol
Thanks Gravlore. My attempts at living off the land are all tragicly comical. Ive learned alot of what not to do.
Thanks OTP. Ive gone the opposite route. Im west coast through and through and its the only area to even consider the idea. Still, even before Fukasima the sea life was getting sketchy. No more radio active pacific Tuna for me and I ask where the clams come from. The esential salmon that are showing huge returns...are also sickly from sea lice. Salel berries are a magor overlooked food sorce on your end. They are bland but if you mix them with hucklberry that are too tart to eat in bulk, they even each other out. The 110 acher land I have in NS just isnt realistic in BC. The area we are in is so ecconomicly crap...that our land tax is only about 250$ per year. I know its counter intuitive but I want the area to stay destitute.....because this is great.
Here is some perspective incase it seems like alot of animals. Lets just say that I could majicly stretch out a deer to feed me for a month. Thats 12 deer a year. Add my wife and that would be 24 deer a year to majicly pull out of my ass. No one needs to point out that"Man does not live on deer alone"
I have a Tactical Harness and I have a Tool Belt. The Tool Belt is more Useful.
Lol, thanks C5, wer'e a pretty good bunch in general I think 🙂
Other issues that must be considered also;
The breeding gene pool of any animal, wild or not, is limited. By natural selection, only the strong and healthiest will survive. Many of those survivors would be hunted & killed by preditor animals, not just humans searching for food. The preditor animals themselves will be at risk, but bear in mind that they are far superior natural hunters than we are, and so the availability of smaller prey or at risk animals would be lessened.
Inbreeding by lack of suitable partners, ie mother to son, father to daughter, sister to brother, would deplete numbers quite rapidly as weaknesses and new genetic faults could begin to occur within 3 generations or less.
Most animals have a limited annual breeding cycle so numbers cannot be replenished more often.
Disease and viruses that the animal could once have fended off through their natural immune system, or domesticated animals that had treatable conditions, could mutate and infect other species, reducing more populations.
The vast majority of animals currently on farms and purposely bred for commercial meat production are raised by humans NOT their natural mother. They are administered a vast array of veterinary drugs to treat and prevent disease, anti-parasitical treatments, etc. etc. When they stop through lack of availability, the animals’ immune system will not cope and they will succumb to illness and death. This would spread disease to more animals in the environment.
So I’m imagining a worst case scenario situation, within say 12 months for arguments sake. As I glance out my window right now I can see 2 wild female turkeys out in the paddock with a combined flock of 18 small youngsters in tow from this years breeding season. That would be enough meat for me and my family to last a couple of weeks or so on rations if I was lucky enough to catch them all. Of those young turkeys, approximately 70% look to be males. Allowing for the females who may not be successful with breeding or whose chicks/eggs taken by predators, the population could reduce significantly within a very short time. There are also a number of dumped and feral cats about whose population is increasing each year because they have adapted their immune systems and widened their gene pools, and the number of rabbits, hare, and other small animals has decreased. Further up the hill on another farm there are around 300 breeding ewes who have lambed this last breeding season. All the ram lambs have been castrated, gone for slaughter, or been shipped off, and only a few ewe lambs are left for next breeding within the next 2-3 years. There are around 200 head of cattle, all castrated steers, no entire bulls or cows.
So where to from here? Definitely food for thought C5 🙂
Yup, commertial production is the other big mess. I think the hippies win this round. Alot less meat and the smaller heritage heards that are not over bread, inbread and desighned only to make money....wile risking your land. Hippies... and an entire army of people to hold the land. Its also counter intuative but Farming means War. It always has.
I have a Tactical Harness and I have a Tool Belt. The Tool Belt is more Useful.
😈
You had to know id ring in on this eh C5, lol
Here goes, In Canada roughly 5% of the population hunts http://www.ec.gc.ca/reom-mbs/default.asp?lang=en&n=CFB6F561
There is roughly 35 million, (that stat can be found anywhere) so 1,750,000 hunters roughly. Ill tag on 250000 for pouchers!
So basically you could say with your numbers and my numbers it wouldnt be that bad but yes it would mean populations would dwindle.
Most hunters now a days can barely read a compass, as long as they have an atv and a cell phone theyre good to go, Now take that away and what do you got? Not a whole lot, lol. Im only saying this because i know how it is, very few people actually hunt now a days and what i mean by that is without a bait station. Apples namely
There are small moose populations everywhere in mainland NS but the greatest numbers are on cape breton island so not much help.
As for the great depression........unfortunately life isnt the same as it was when the GD happened not as many people hunt, fish, trap or for that matter even have a garden, Also the government gave rations like bread and eggs to help hold people over, do you honestly think that would happen now a days? I sure dont! and with that said how long do you give these people to live without help? not long im guessing
Comparing anything in history to events going on right now is kind of a mood point, were in unpressidented times!
I guess what im really saying is that i do agree with you, however it wouldnt be as bad as you think if it were a fast crash but if it were a slow one it would definately take a toll on everything.
Living in the wilderness isnt impossible for small family units just really really difficult! people seem to forget conservation alot of times, live catching partridge pheasant and grouse and raising them just like chickens is very possible so long as you can feed them ( gardern perhaps?) Even Deer could be live cought and raised like cattle. There are many options open for survival, but i will say if you dont know what your doing the woods should be your absolute last choice! I will add more later as dinner is ready, Talk Soon.
Back for more.
Alot of people like myself dont have options open to them so taking something from nothing is the only way. But there is alot and i mean alot of prep work and incase you hadnt noticed i am one of those people heading to the hills, not because i want to but because i have no other choice! Im not just rushing out into the woods with a BOB in tow i have food there already , seeds, ammo, a garden in ect so its not like im playing rambo lol
I know what the people are like around me so bunking down in the house or even trying to live in my house wouldnt fly as soon as i leave for work or anything else my wife and child are open to whoever roams in. There is nothing you can do to stop someone from getting in your house when your not there if they want to come in, sure you can shoot em but more will come, now if i lived further out in the country i would bunker down but where i live not really an option, as far as im concerned.
If someone decides theyre going to go live in the wilderness you better make damn sure you know what your doing, Game can be quite unpleasent if its not cleaned and taken care of properly, Have you ever had deer that tasted bad? Well that means it wasnt cleaned properly or butchered properly, most of the gammy taste of deer is in the glands and some of the fat (or if its a buck in primetime rut). Hell if you dont clean your game properly some animals can make you sick as a dog even fish in some cases and where you going to go to get treated for your illness when your in the bush ? yea exactly
No matter what your choice is when your prepping you have to take everything into consideration, Living in a prepper community would be the best bet as far as survival but everything has its pros and cons and heading out into the woods ill prepared theres going to be a hell of alot of cons lol.
I wondered how long It would take to hear from you. Thought it would get a rise. lol. I think you are proving my point...if you think about it. Give me a bit to come up with a good and witty response....and finish this up...when I dont have beer goggles on.
I have a Tactical Harness and I have a Tool Belt. The Tool Belt is more Useful.
Well, Im getting nothing witty but I think I should finish this. Yes, only a small percentage of people hunt today but like I said, It seems to be everyones plan anyhow. Like you said, Most of those hunters cant even hunt without gas...or resupply. Most so called "Sportsmen" are just Tourists. Back to the numbers. Between the GD and now, Canadas population has increased 3 and a half times. I was suprised it was that low. Then again its preception. The Great Depression really was just yesterday. Its easy to think of it as back in the stone age when the world was black and white (according to the news reels) but if you take my rather short life and simply double it, that gets you there.
Most animals will write their own extinctin by habituation. If you are a dear, why would you want to live in a monoculture forest with little edible growth when you can feast on cleared land. Same goes with every road becoming one big salt lick.
I taught myself to track a few years back so I get a decent picture of the animals (and humans) in my area. Looking at the land over a period of years gives another perspective. We have a rather large chunk of land attached to alot ....of woodlot. If I read it right, there are 7 dear I see plus 2 or three that I dont see but know pass through. They just pass through. There are 2 phesant that I have my fingers crossed, will breed if I leave them alone. A wopping 2 rabbits. Ill have to guess at grouse aroung 20 but they are too unpredictable, and a pack of coyote (Partialy bread with red wolf) that pass by about once a month. There are 2 bear but they keep them selves scarce. They think they are sneeky but I know where they feed.The pocupine seems to have dissapeared this year as well as the raccoons. Also about 15 beaver within walking distance.
That may seem like a lot ...but its barily enough to breed. And I wouldnt be the only person competeing for them. I can chase people off my land but most of these animals have a much larger range. If it is a fast crash, I plan on taking as many of the deer and the bear as I can as fast as I can proccess them...before the brass hoard take them. I dont expect any more to fill the eccological vacume. Its farming from then on in wether I like it or not. The day of the hunter gatherer will officialy be over. Im a Nomad and Hunter Gatherer by nature. I have no Farming tendencies...so its a real hard pill to swallow. Im trying to be realistic....and Im addapting myself to the survival senario I see coming, not addapting the collapse senario to the life I wanted
I have a Tactical Harness and I have a Tool Belt. The Tool Belt is more Useful.
And how long do you expect this brass hoard to last? 3 days and the hunger will drive them to the fields of cattle that look like such easy pickings.
Well, i have mulled this over a number of times, even written twice and deleted them, I agree that in certain area's of the country that you will find that all the common hunting animals will be quite quickly harvested, the sad thing about that is that there will lots of folks who will take out the larger "common" things folks hunt for like deer, elk and moose, and yes the bear, and given the lack of knowledge and skill in buctering/perserving, combined with the everyone for themselves, and we will see alot! of meat, hides going to waste.
I think it will take longer for folks to turn to the rest of the wildlife, sure folks will jump at the chance to get a turkey or a rabbit, but I am not sure that folks will be looking at beaver, tree rats or porpine all that quickly, and unless they are setting trap lines, they are going to find that its not nearly as easy to just go "hunt" already hunted smaller critters.
As most of you know, I am in fact a small farmer, and I would in fact be butchering out a huge amount of my animals as fast and hard as I could while perserving it, and then I would be moving the "core" breeding stock over to the BOL near the farm itself with the plans and hopes that after the first major push went though, that we would be able to take the stores and the critters back into production.
Depending on the time of the year, it would certianly make a different one what I could "hold" over, but If I could have it in a ideal world, I would want to keep the rabbits, a few chickens and a small flock of sheep along with the draft horse, I sadly would be needing to let my cow go, along with most of everything else..
Bottom line for me, is that it would depend on many factors to say the least..
http://livingmydreamlifeonthefarm.wordpress.com/
I imagine many of us are hoping that if it is a low-probability/high-impact event that destroys the rule of law, then the die-off will be so massive that there simply won't be many hunters of any kind left after 3-6 weeks. Once the food on hand is cleared and the ruffians/bandits steal from the weak who didn't hide themselves and run out of that food... what will be left?
Are we talking survival rates of 1 in 10 or 1 in 100? Depends on the nature of the event I suppose. If it is bad (loss of vehicles as well as the powergrid) then I imagine the wild animals will be doing just fine... 😥
And how long do you expect this brass hoard to last? 3 days and the hunger will drive them to the fields of cattle that look like such easy pickings.
After the cattle, they are looking for anyone still functioning. Its the Slow Crash that is more problematic. The first month, 50 new people move into your district. 2 month later, another 100 bail on the city and are now in biking distance. 6 months later 500 truely desperate come and the previouse 150 that thought this was a fun camping trip have already stripped more than the land could support. Thats when the Brass and Gas Survivalists become real dangerous. I could also trade those numbers to The First year, The Second year and The Sixth year. Thats sort of like Greece today. People stealing firewood
I have a Tactical Harness and I have a Tool Belt. The Tool Belt is more Useful.