people on their own or with only their families would have a tough time surviving the enevitable gangs and roving bandits who would be looking to take whatever you have.

Please don't take offense, but a few things you should consider to help you with your request:

- Roving gangs and bandits? Really? Our future won't look like Mad Max. You may be discouraging some from contacting you.
- What kind of cooperation were you thinking of? Canning? Group buys?
- What skills, equipment or assets can you contribute?

posted by Mr Momo

Please don't take offense, but a few things you should consider to help you with your request:

- Roving gangs and bandits? Really? Our future won't look like Mad Max. You may be discouraging some from contacting you.
- What kind of cooperation were you thinking of? Canning? Group buys?
- What skills, equipment or assets can you contribute?

I dont take any offense
To answer your points:
I guess you think people will all be nice and sing hippy songs and offer each other non exsistant food and supplies. Do you remember how people acted after Katrina imagine that on a global scale...No offense but you are naive.

The cooperation I had in mind was each member of the group having their own supply of food as well as some items for the group such as generators,ham radio,weapons,solar panels.batterries,seeds,etc etc. in addition to these supplies. the increased number of people inherantly increases security and the ability for self defense.

As for my contribution...as stated above, it would be a years supply of food for myself and my family as well as whatever the group decides i should supply from items such as those listed above.

Thanks
Andy

Hi Andy,

What kind of event are your prepping for? Why do you think there will be a global shortage of food and supplies? What is sever like Katrina but on a global scale? What is wrong with singing songs or being a hippy?

Maybe I am naive or maybe you are giving into irrational fear. I don't see hordes of looters and bandits, despite having put considerable attention to the subject and formal training at the university level in disaster remediation. The rule of thumb is, the more severe an event is, the more localized it must be in space and time. A dislocation in law and order is only possible in a severe event, (Katrina), but they are by definition short term and regionally limited events. None of which are prone to the GTA area. We are neither seismically active, nor prone to hurricanes, or any other natural disaster. We could suffer from man made disasters like a nuclear disaster or a hazardous waste spill, but that too would be limited and regional, and wouldn't cause food and supply shortages. Also your years worth of food storage and a generator would be useless as you would have to leave the irradiated area...permanently. So what are you preparing for?

For me, I see economic decline. Inflation making your grocery bills so expensive, you won't starve but you will have to make either/or choices. Either we buy this OR that, not both. Layoffs, bankruptcies, financial losses... Personally I'm not prepping for an event, as the event I'm most worried about is already here. I'm prepping for the long slow grind to sustainability. Each year we will be poorer than the last. More technologically sophisticated, but poorer.

Anything that lowers my cost of living and increases resiliency, comfort and security is my thing. I've accelerated my mortgage payments to be done in 5 years, not 20. I've insulated my walls and basement and redone the water proofing. I've put up metal roofing that should last 50 years. I've installed a new high efficiency gas furnace and tankless water heater. My bills are now 2/3 of what they used to be. I've installed a wood burning Fireplace insert as a backup for heating an cooking and stored a cord of wood in the backyard. Leaving more room to prep financially. I bought a home near a transit hub, so if i need to go carless I can. I bought a handcart for shopping on foot. I have a big back yard, so I can grow a garden big enough to heavily subsidize our food (50% of a family of 4), and give a family member something productive to do in the event of long term joblessness. I have acquired a nice stockpile of canning supplies and the books on canning/gardening and seed prep to master the skills so we can enjoy the fruits of our labour and cut our food bills to buying only what we can't do ourselves. I have rainbarrels for the garden so water collection and treatment is not an issue. I have a rotating supply of canned goods, so any local event we wouldn't have to do without. We could stay in our homes safe and snug for a month or more, by which time it is either time to go outside or move. I carry a rotating stockpile of 100l of gasoline with stabiliser and always keep my car above 1/2 tank. I stockup on candles and kerosene when I see a good deal. My kitchen ware is all stainless and cast iron and will never need replacing. I have purchased a good and nearly complete set of hand tools for home and garden so if I need to do anything with them, I'll have tools that will last a lifetime. You get the idea. I laid out my concerns that I'm prepping for, and a logical and practical means of dealing with it. I am not self-sufficient, but I'm getting closer every day and in a few years when I've slayed the mortgage dragon I could be comfortable for many many years if my family were out of work for a very long time. We'd get by with reasonable comfort. Best of my all preps are not expenses that will be worth it only if SHTF. My preps all pay dividends today. Living simply costs less, and I also have more options as to what and how I do things. Simplicity, resiliency, redundancy and sustainability.

Now lets look at what you've suggested. What kind of event is severe like Katrina, but on a global scale? How long do you have to prepare fro this? A global nuclear exchange is about the only thing we could do on that scale, and quite frankly...you can't reasonably prepare for events of that magnitude. You predict a global shortage of food and supplies, and roving hordes and bandits, so that you feel it appropriate to stockpile a generator and a years worth of food. O.K. Now what? When your food is gone and your generator need repairs or is out of gas then what? How will you prepare, buy more generators and more food? How will you go to work with the hordes of roving bandits? How will you go shopping? How will you heat and light your home, in 5 years...ten years? How will buy gas for your generator when fuel is expensive or rationed and you've been laid off or otherwise out of work....again.

You suggest you will contribute to a group...your own family's years worth of food? That is not a contribution. The group does not benefit, you are only reducing your burden on anyone else, but they were not responsible for you in the first place. What are you going to contribute, money, skills, equipment, labour, real estate? Where is this group going to be located? Who is going to physically possess the items you collectively acquire? If you have roving bandit hordes how are you going get from one group members place to the other. Toronto is a big place. Are you going to move in together? If not who gets the generator? Will you share it on a schedule like Mondays it is Ted's, and Tuesdays it is Mary's?

Don't give into irrational fear. Be pragmatic and practical. The solutions are surprisingly easy.

Hi Andy:
You are not alone.
I too am hoping to meet some like minded people. I agree with you that it would be financially advantageous to pool resources but it is very difficult to find and get people to all agree on what is the most important issues to prepare for.
You speak of roving gangs and bandits and while I too believe that if “TSHTF” so to speak that will indeed be a problem but I also think that we need to become less reliant on government and what government supplies and more self-sufficient/self-reliant.
We sold our house a couple of years ago along with almost all of the extra and unused “stuff” that we had accumulated over the years and bought a 5th wheel trailer and truck and have been nomads for the last two years. The only regret we have is that we waited so long and didn’t do this 10 years ago. We have been loving every minute of it and all that life has to offer.
What my wife and I are also doing is looking for rural and somewhat remote property, somewhere between 100 to 300 acres, possibly in Northern Ontario for one example. We have already looked at a few properties and while they did not meet all of our requirements they did show us that the type of property we want is indeed out there.
What we are hoping to do is purchase the land and build our own off-grid “homestead” and then if possible find some like minded people and if they are interested sell them 5 or 10 acre parcels so that they too could go off-grid if that is their desire. Not so much a commune but rather a community with everyone having their own property and privacy with everyone contributing something to and for the good of all.
I wish you all the best.

Ladies, go easy on the catfight. LOL.
Andy, as u have seen there are different levels and thoughts, opinions on how to prep, what u need, what will happen when/if SHTF. Depending on your thoughts, check out some American survivalist sites.
http://www.survivalistboards.com
You'll see people that think more like you. I did post a topic are u a prepper or survivalist? And radio comms when SHTF as well. I have to comment on the fact that this topic turned out to slam u a bit...alot...I went for a nap halfway through reading Mr.Momo. He is prepared, very well it would seem. But the slamming is really not needed. Glad to hear and see you on the board.
The Beav

Ladies, go easy on the catfight. LOL.
Andy, as u have seen there are different levels and thoughts, opinions on how to prep, what u need, what will happen when/if SHTF. Depending on your thoughts, check out some American survivalist sites.
http://www.survivalistboards.com
You'll see people that think more like you. I did post a topic are u a prepper or survivalist? And radio comms when SHTF as well. I have to comment on the fact that this topic turned out to slam u a bit...alot...I went for a nap halfway through reading Mr.Momo. He is prepared, very well it would seem. But the slamming is really not needed. Glad to hear and see you on the board.
The Beav

The slamming will be regretted in the end. Because like many, I agree with Andy. It doesn't matter what it is, if anything in this unstable world we've manufactured collapses, world/local food shortages, economic depression, pandemics, riots or protesting...at one point or another it's all the same. This is why preppers can agree to disagree. The same fundamentals and basics apply, food, water, protection, for X amount of time. What ever you feel with carry you and yours.

But the main point that must be understood mr. Mono..is that if for any reason, the trucks stop shipping, or people fear an event enough to go buy out walmart out of paranoia or no one has enough money to buy things due to inflation, the same horrific problem occurs, food scarcity or outright starvation, even small scale, all it takes is one household full of 10 welfare cases to get pissed and kick your door in. You need to be open minded, if it can happen, chances ate it will. Don't be so naive.

I must add though!, independence and self-sustainability is important for civilization to progress. Independence is the lesson and goal of prepping, yet one must consider all the contingencies to come.

mr Momo wrote:
Hi Andy,

What kind of event are your prepping for? Why do you think there will be a global shortage of food and supplies? What is sever like Katrina but on a global scale? What is wrong with singing songs or being a hippy?

Maybe I am naive or maybe you are giving into irrational fear. I don't see hordes of looters and bandits, despite having put considerable attention to the subject and formal training at the university level in disaster remediation. The rule of thumb is, the more severe an event is, the more localized it must be in space and time. A dislocation in law and order is only possible in a severe event, (Katrina), but they are by definition short term and regionally limited events. None of which are prone to the GTA area. We are neither seismically active, nor prone to hurricanes, or any other natural disaster. We could suffer from man made disasters like a nuclear disaster or a hazardous waste spill, but that too would be limited and regional, and wouldn't cause food and supply shortages. Also your years worth of food storage and a generator would be useless as you would have to leave the irradiated area...permanently. So what are you preparing for?

For me, I see economic decline. Inflation making your grocery bills so expensive, you won't starve but you will have to make either/or choices. Either we buy this OR that, not both. Layoffs, bankruptcies, financial losses... Personally I'm not prepping for an event, as the event I'm most worried about is already here. I'm prepping for the long slow grind to sustainability. Each year we will be poorer than the last. More technologically sophisticated, but poorer.

Anything that lowers my cost of living and increases resiliency, comfort and security is my thing. I've accelerated my mortgage payments to be done in 5 years, not 20. I've insulated my walls and basement and redone the water proofing. I've put up metal roofing that should last 50 years. I've installed a new high efficiency gas furnace and tankless water heater. My bills are now 2/3 of what they used to be. I've installed a wood burning Fireplace insert as a backup for heating an cooking and stored a cord of wood in the backyard. Leaving more room to prep financially. I bought a home near a transit hub, so if i need to go carless I can. I bought a handcart for shopping on foot. I have a big back yard, so I can grow a garden big enough to heavily subsidize our food (50% of a family of 4), and give a family member something productive to do in the event of long term joblessness. I have acquired a nice stockpile of canning supplies and the books on canning/gardening and seed prep to master the skills so we can enjoy the fruits of our labour and cut our food bills to buying only what we can't do ourselves. I have rainbarrels for the garden so water collection and treatment is not an issue. I have a rotating supply of canned goods, so any local event we wouldn't have to do without. We could stay in our homes safe and snug for a month or more, by which time it is either time to go outside or move. I carry a rotating stockpile of 100l of gasoline with stabiliser and always keep my car above 1/2 tank. I stockup on candles and kerosene when I see a good deal. My kitchen ware is all stainless and cast iron and will never need replacing. I have purchased a good and nearly complete set of hand tools for home and garden so if I need to do anything with them, I'll have tools that will last a lifetime. You get the idea. I laid out my concerns that I'm prepping for, and a logical and practical means of dealing with it. I am not self-sufficient, but I'm getting closer every day and in a few years when I've slayed the mortgage dragon I could be comfortable for many many years if my family were out of work for a very long time. We'd get by with reasonable comfort. Best of my all preps are not expenses that will be worth it only if SHTF. My preps all pay dividends today. Living simply costs less, and I also have more options as to what and how I do things. Simplicity, resiliency, redundancy and sustainability.

Now lets look at what you've suggested. What kind of event is severe like Katrina, but on a global scale? How long do you have to prepare fro this? A global nuclear exchange is about the only thing we could do on that scale, and quite frankly...you can't reasonably prepare for events of that magnitude. You predict a global shortage of food and supplies, and roving hordes and bandits, so that you feel it appropriate to stockpile a generator and a years worth of food. O.K. Now what? When your food is gone and your generator need repairs or is out of gas then what? How will you prepare, buy more generators and more food? How will you go to work with the hordes of roving bandits? How will you go shopping? How will you heat and light your home, in 5 years...ten years? How will buy gas for your generator when fuel is expensive or rationed and you've been laid off or otherwise out of work....again.

You suggest you will contribute to a group...your own family's years worth of food? That is not a contribution. The group does not benefit, you are only reducing your burden on anyone else, but they were not responsible for you in the first place. What are you going to contribute, money, skills, equipment, labour, real estate? Where is this group going to be located? Who is going to physically possess the items you collectively acquire? If you have roving bandit hordes how are you going get from one group members place to the other. Toronto is a big place. Are you going to move in together? If not who gets the generator? Will you share it on a schedule like Mondays it is Ted's, and Tuesdays it is Mary's?

Don't give into irrational fear. Be pragmatic and practical. The solutions are surprisingly easy.
Mr. Momo Posts: 2Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:13 pm

Mr Momo

It seems you are prepping for increasing inflation and unemployment something everyone should be doing. Whereas I am trying to prep for a global calamity....perhaps a meteor strike,(we are due for one) maybe a pandemic of some sort,rising sea levels, economioc collapse....with 7 billion people and counting something has to give. If it was possible for people to join together in a predetermined location and everyone bring something to the group then the group would be better off....they may posses fuel,generators,solar panels,ham radio, weapons and ammunition etc etc that each individual would otherwise not have had. You also ask so what next after the years supply of food has ran out ...I dont know maybe growing crops would be possible..maybe with less people around hunting gathering would work. I am doing exactly the same things you are only I forsee more than an ecconomic downturn on the horizon and am attempting to be better preperared by joining with other like minded people. lets hope it will never come to that in which case it would have cost me nothing as the food is rotated and I would still have whatever extra equipment I obtained for the group.

Lets agree to disagree on our intentions and goals for prepping.

Thanks
Andy

Hi Guys,

I'm sorry if this came out like a slam. It wasn't meant to be. I learn by challenging my ideas and preconceptions against others of differing opinions. I absorb and integrate others replies into my understanding. Many take this to be a confrontational style, but to me it is just an open and frank conversation. I feel really bad if Andy or anyone got the impression that I'm bashing him, I would hope that you see my view as an intellectual challenge, that may help you grow in your understanding of the challenges we face in the same way. Intellectual complacency is a danger as well, and can be counterproductive to our efforts in prepping. I used to have a similar view, but time, effort and the contributions of others have moderated my views, and I now focus on what I see as practical.

As for the hordes...what was mentioned about a group of welfare folks breaking down doors is no different than the risks we face today. You can have a B&E today, so my prepping for security is no different in a SHTF scenario as it is for today. While we do have the police and courts now, they only help AFTER THE FACT, so I discount them now as I would in the event of a collapse of law and order. If someone is breaking into my house when I'm at work, or while I'm at home, the "before" and "during" parts of the crime would be the same. The only thing that changes for me post SHTF would be the trouble of hunting down criminals if we lost policing services.

I'm inclined to agree with Mr Momo's take on the future. A slow decline of our ability to maintain our standard of living. The more we can do for ourselves the better off we'll be. Those are the people I want as my neighbors/friends.

On the other hand, I've read that up to 10% of "preppers" think all they need is guns and ammo, they'll just take what ever else they need. So I devote about 10% to deal with them.
I predict they'll survive 1 week, 2 at the most.
In any SHTF, the authorities will deal harshly with "troublemakers".

Mr MOMO, Im glad you responded in the articulate way you did. I agree that challenging others viewpoint makes one stronger, more informed and more well rounded. Im always up for being questioned as Im secure in my abilities and actions. if I am questioned and can be educated then its a bonus too. I thought that you may have posted just as many do to bust on others...glad to see the viewpoint was in good faith. Sounds like your well preppared. Good on ya.
The Beav.

Andy asked for others to cooperate with in the GTA. I asked probing questions to see if he was the kind of guy we could partner with. I've now seen enough to know that we are not compatible.

He has too much fear and not enough planning and rationalization than the group I belong to can tolerate. Meteor strikes and a global malthusian dieoff are possible, but he needs to sort out his priorities. I even pointed out some basic truths that stand up to scientific rigor in that severity and likelihood of disasters are inversely proportional, but I was called naive. I asked what he wanted to cooperate with and got vague ideas which tells me he is open to ideas, but lacks leadership and a plan. Same for skills, and any other assets. Taking up farming after everyone else has died off is not a valid plan for my group. I also raised concerns about partnering with people spread out over an area as large as the GTA as everyone in my group is in my neighborhood and within walking distance. If they group splurge on a generator, whose house gets to keep the water pipes from bursting in the winter and whose house has to be abandoned to freeze in the dark? Group dynamics bring an order of magnitude more complexity to teamwork and leadership. You have to worry about logistics, theft, trust, equal participation, equal benefit, ways to dissolve the group and distribute assets equitably if things go sour, or if someone moves due to work or simple a different level of tolerance for the risks and rewards living in a city bring. You have to be able to handle differing opinions, and work to find equitable ways to move forward. You need to build expectations of what will and what won't be covered by your groups covenant.

His reaction to an intellectual challenge, like Aries', tell me that they are not compatible with what we are trying to achieve. Andy and Aries, good luck prepping as best as you see fit, but don't go looking for help and cooperation from others with inflexibility and insults and a plethora of self-destructive habits.

It's always tough to find the kind of people that share your version of prepping. I hate labels but I would say I'm much more of a homesteader than a survivalist. I want to know about wild edibles, raising livestock and hunting techniques way more than 25 ways to start a fire without matches, find water in the desert, and what bugs are OK to eat.
I have a lot of Bic lighters, flint and matches, proper water filters, and enough skill with small arms that I won't be eating any bugs.

I would expect any "partners" to already be somewhat self reliant. Already have your own means of getting by for a couple of months, your own alternate heat, generator, food etc. When your chainsaw craps out or your tools need some welding, I'm your friend. I can help if you're having trouble with some garden pest, need help building a fireplace or a rocket mass heater.

Please don't show up on my doorstep with 5 guns,a case of MRE's and expect a room with a view.

Ive hear the there is more than one way to skin a cat, but 25 ways to start a fire without matches. Damn ive got some research to do. LOL. I really enjoyed this convo/ string? is it called a string? Im new to these post thingies....really enlightening. I'll keep on reviewing as things are added.

One thing, to keep it going (and stir the pot, LOL) the roving hoardes of bandits...I can see a famliy of crackheads roaming around in the city, an easier walk here and there. They get hungry and smell your food cooking.... Am I safer being a little closer to the country, not the 'burbs, not on a farm but somewhere in between. Ive always thought anyone that comes to my place would be seen a little more easily,( and a longer walk) whereas the city would allow then to pose a little more surprise.
The Beav