This has been my dream since I was a child... as a troubled kid, put into a group session with other kids, we derailed the therapists discussion, all speaking of our discontent with modern society, the hopelessness of having no community, and wanting to see the results of our efforts in a meaningful way other than cash for rent. I have spent a good deal of time off and on through adulthood trying to figure out how to do this, even considering disappearing into the woods. I don't want to live alone. I don't think it makes any sense to "survive" with no meaningful contact with others. I have always believed in the principals of doing for others, living for others as well as myself, in an environmentally sustainable way. I don't believe that the system I live in can ever make me happy. I want more, and literally less. My boyfriend and I have recently been researching ways to do this on our own, but I want to be part of a like-minded community. I'm so happy to see people making their way toward that dream. I just found this site tonight.
Hi RedMars:
Right on.
You are welcome to explore whether our project is a fit for you. We are right on the edge of acquiring property or losing the one we've been watching for a long time.
Feel free to contact me by PM for further information. I believe you have to have made at least 3 postings to enable the use of PM. Regards....villager
I haven't read all that has occurred in this thread other than the first page. I like the mindset of like-minded individuals forming a community as I stayed at a few 1/2 attempts at communes in the 70's. I have been living in a small community in Lake of the Woods region for many years. I know that the government would likely be aware of your setup due to the discussions in this forum. Also, we all know that folks can fall on hard times and therefore, the more persons involved, the more likely an event will occur where others will have to cover that person's debt load. Other issues can also divide folks such as simple conflict of interests, to sexual preferences, to personal habits. The regulations issue to # of buildings and such is also a major roadblock.,,, so many variables to consider! But that did get me thinking....
My area is full of tourist camps. Many have 5 -12 cabins. Each cabin usually contains 3-5 beds. As I mentioned in another thread, local folks wouldn't likely take to strangers during a SHTF event, so just moving in at the last moment may have it's flaws. Getting to know your neighbours first is the key to making things work. Gardens need to be planted and a community effort would ensure they were established and functioning. People do this time share thing for holidaying in the south. Why couldn't folks expand on that concept to make things affordable until such an event occurred?
Here's what I got so far!
1. Say 10 people paid for a tourist camp that contained 10 cabins(no, I don't have any specific one in mind). This would ensure that you had a Plan B location to head to which is well out of heavy traffic due to an emergency exodus. No red flags go up and influx of unknown traffic is common.
2. You have someone trustworthy run the camp and now you have a vacation spot to take the family to as many times yearly as you see fit. You and family relax, practice your survival skills, work the community garden, meet the locals, go home.
3. When your not using it, you rent share time to friends, neighbours or let caretaker book others so you might even make a profit after taxes, etc. and not have to worry about maintaining 2 places.
4. Should financial events occur, you have a viable asset to sell and rules could be made to figure out who replaces you.
5. Many camps have trailer parks(with full hookup) so others can join or there is room for expansion to do so.
6. Most camps have backup systems(generators) built in. Adding solar panels and windmills wouldn't raise flags.
7. You would be surrounded by lakes and forest. Food and water(ones basic essentials) would be plentiful if you know what your doing= less food reserves required.
8. You'd have less chance of attack as you'd be off the major routes of travel(the further off the better, the better the chances).
Tourism has been hit hard these past few years and some fix-up camps sell for $300,000.00 Cdn. This is good because you could modify them as you go to winter living(most cabins are often log but no insulation otherwise). Plumbing would likey need to be redone as many just shut off the pumps and drain the lines for winter.
Anyways, just a thought to make you all ponder over.........
~ Knuckle ~
I just read back a bit and saw a mention of $2000 each for 10 people. That would be an amazing investment for a cheap fallback> I cant say that living small 8'x12' trailer would work well for winter living. I spent 1 1/2years in a 48' school bus I built. My permanent companion was (1) 130 lb. rottweiller who was smart enough to get out of the way when I walked down the isle. Girlfriends were less trainable! My point is it is hard to live in small places without getting in each others space continually. If you enjoy the outdoors, great. But winter is different. They never came up with the term "cabin fever" for nothing! And girls never ran to mom's for nothing during PMS in the old days. It was to avoid separation over those little things.
Having neighbours who have your back while being close enough to save you is also a manditory item during a likely "die-off" event. Your fallback being a place so close to the battlefield is definitely gonna your make lives harder too. Many theorists consider choosing a place at least a full gas tank away. Even my local can't meet that requirement fully but all considering, I'll stay here, thanks!
I know the tourist camp idea would require at least $30,000 per person, but it would be a more likely investment, system approved and can make a profit(to some degree in today's economy) instead of milking you further. I'd consider finding a way to use it as a separate(hidden) investment, so if later faced with financial ruin due to a failing economy, it would remain a secure investment then too. I don't know the legalities, but that would be my final goal.
I believe in preparing for as many variables as possible and one troubles me most with this commune society. As social order declines, locals to your vicinity would likely feel both envious and nervous of your presence. When an event occurs involving your people(likely someone stealing your $hit), others(likely those locals with influential power) will rally folks to form a police action against you in order to get their hands on the rest of your $hit(as you wisely stock piled it earlier). This is where your people now have to stand together until the end, Ruby Ridge all over again. My point is that even having 1 Rambo in your midst can bring a whole lot of headache prematurely. Fighting must be a last resort and then be prepared for the fallout. Again, that is why the further from the front, the better. The problem of how to make it so far during a crisis period is another issue each in turn then has to consider....
I like your idea of the tourist camp with cabins. It is one of the better ideas I've heard of .
Yes, the small cabins on skid-beams, and/or tinyhouse trailers are what we plan, both to live in and extras to rent out ..also during vacant times between travel/building trips . This will help pay for the infrastructure/maintenance.
We have plenty of room for likeminded shareholders, and they will be stunned by the relative bargain!...so close to lakes/hunting.
We expect a confirmation one way or another when our agent returns from a trip.
Unfortunately, bleeding heart though I am, I have to agree that people must pull their weight in every capacity, at least unti the foundation is laid, physically, fiscally and legally.
People need to understand the actual pricetag, not just the buy-in and what they need for their own dream home. And the poor sods I have seen get into their dream bunker build, or whatever design they have in mind, without enough money to even get all their ducks in a row first, end up with wasted money and materials on their hands, a mess left by seasons of weather and not enough labour available to get things done in a timely fashion, and give up.
Infrastructure needs cannot be ignored. The essentials, like a well (which is not cheap), communal meeting house (which could contain a cooking area), agreement on the use of fuels or electricity by individuals, community equipment such as machinery necessary for building and maintenance of infrastructure, and sustainable food supply (ie. the more people you have the more food you need to grow, store and preserve, and someone needs to do it - *well*).
No one should get into this without legal assistance - how will we deal with property taxes? What are the specific rules of any place around land use and taxation and does that change based on the number of occupants? There are a lot of things we can't afford to find out after the fact.
And even assuming that all of those things have fallen into place, the land is owned outright by each stakeholder, the money and agreements are lined up so there is no question of whether we can afford the infrastructure, there are still a thousand permutations of rules for social order and room for disagreements... a team mentality is paramount, and being very solidly in agreement about what is truly important to the cohesiveness of a group, and what simply isn't. Those decisions are made as a group, and it is entirely possible not everyone will like the direction in the end, but better to be mature and honest and not go along with something they don't truly believe in, like any other relationship in adult life.
I'm going out on a limb and assuming that people who have come to the point where they are actively seeking other people for the possibility of this future reality do realize all of these things, and have at least somewhat mentally prepared for these eventualities. I'm sure that people are equally longing and mistrusting, as any rational person would be, of throwing in their lot with a group of, in a real sense, strangers. I haven't had the benefit of knowing anyone from this forum yet personally, but I do plan to meet people in this area soon. And I respect that people who have known each other for sufficient time to trust them may not be comfortable with newbs jumping in.
For me this is more about learning at this point, discussing what is possible, because I won't know what to aim for until I know what is attainable. Unfortunately people tend to flee their current lifestyle when it isn't going well for them, not the other way around, so resources are not limitless. It's a complicated prospect no matter which way one goes about it.
I'm glad to be part of this discussion just to learn from others, no matter what else happens.
Very accurate and sober assessment of the basic precautionary posture required, RedMars...and your points are some of the main reasons there are relatively few involved at ownership level in a co-operative association. Besides clarity in money, legalities, governance, etc. in learning interpersonal exchange in a new shared context, it's too much challenge for many folks.
Even after a long history of various such active community involvements , your reminding posting causes me to revisit things which may have been missed in pre-paration. Thanks.
With a background of decades, this latest project has been about 2 yrs. in the making, and the things you've addressed have been considered, with some contingencies in most....but never enough. It needs more "collective wisdom"...which comes with more like-minded folks, in association. This takes time and some depth of exchange, for sure.
But even then, we can't see everything, nor plan to the last detail regarding changing dynamics in future.
For some, it's simply time to go, .....almost no-matter-what ....more running 'to' change, not so much 'from' faltering circumstances...sure, conflicted somewhat because of financial dearth as a result of compromising lifestyle vs. vision, over too long a span.... but then finding others in similar compelling constraints and realizing the potential in willing numbers to co-compensate for the unconventional paths they may have taken in search of viable living options beyond "family".
For others, it's sorting out their complex personal circumstances which have been largely predicated on the existing soc. system. They know change is needed, and are extracting themselves (or not) at the rate they see fit. They could very well adjust to further co-opting with the status quo, and "really succeed" where they are, but know their heart is not in it.
Yet, the things learned from the longterm system apprenticeship can still be useful in transitioning ...understanding what others are coming through, as we are/have.
There are so many stories; no guarantees, and plenty of risks,...some avoidable.
Also , wildcard opportunities/challenges come up, and rattle each one according to their current mindset, abilities, proactive readiness, and fiscal solvency, etc. Life, it is.
We are so blessed with relative choice in this land, still.
.....villager
Well , for those who like the home on trailer wheels idea, I came across this on You Tube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSzgh3D7-Q0.
There are other Tiny Trailer-Home designs to look at when you view this clip, but I note that many do not present the outside as to how they live. I did note the solar panels...no mention as to the insulation values of the walls or roof for Canadian possibilities. Folks who live in mobile homes up here need to shirt in the trailer to prevent pipes freezing. Even up here you have to have a septic field or town plumbing to be legal.
The skirting in allows the storage of other necessities to be stored over the winter. Access is harder though as we bank snow against all sides for more insulation. Heat loss would be drastic with too many windows but for such a small space, I'd definitely have enough to eliminate the gloom aspect. While watching these vids, I catch myself going back to my bus converting days and consider doing them again before maybe going to these designs.
Here's what I'd do now:
1. Buy a 48' schoolbus as their tough as nails.
2. I'd raise the roof 3 - 4ft starting 8 ft back(but only after first getting it safety completed as they'd challenge my mods)
3. I'd spray foam all the walls for insulation if they are not already done.
4. I'd incorporate many of their open space design concepts.
5. I'd rig a pellet stove that could be easily switched for a rocket stove if needed
6.
With all the new stuff they have out there nowadays, I can see an comfortable existence could be had if we needed to cut back. For those who forsee an impending personal economic collapse, this would also be an option to work towards. When going bankrupt, the government allows an individual to keep a vehicle with a value of up to $5000. A cheap bus could likely qualify and you can run around in a $500 car while you recover.....
" Even up here you have to have a septic field or town plumbing to be legal."
That's useful info, Knuckle. Is that the case absolutely everywhere in your wider area? Don't they allow composting toilets of any kind? Sunmar claims Ontario-wide approval as far as i know, and i think they use them in remote tourist/campsite installations run by the gov.staff.
Re tiny-house trailers....some has been posted on other topic sites,.... but the one i almost bought recently was a 20' x8'5"tandem with an open-space, loft, and entrance . Walls, ceiling and floor were R29 hidensity foam SIP's (structural insulated panels) 6" thick, also shed roof, very heat efficient. I'll likely use that basic idea if i feel the need at the time to stay mobile, and i still have enough cash. That cost was 25, 000 can., on a new 10,000# trailer. Rest is extra.
Judging by the window frame depth in the US trailer picture, it looked like standard 2x4 wall thickness, not 6".
In my design, i have included welding receiver HD tubing across the front and back under/onto the frame to receive removable outrigger tubing to adjustable legs, 4'-6' out from edge of trailer. This is for optional stability and or a deck all around, off the ground....even an acrylic- covered greenhouse/entrance pre-warmer on the south side.
Some People have compost toilets and many have outhouses. The legal aspect is the grey water. You can dump it on the ground all you want but don't get caught. I agree that it is just stupid, but if authorities want to get something on you, these stupid rules are what they reach for. My area is all tourism so everything is structured to make folks stay at parks or tourist camps.
Years ago folks would stop on the side of the road and camp. Provincial Parks were expensive and they were just traveling thru often as not. Some jerk likely decided that they had to teach these folk they must conform.....You all likely are semi-aware of this as I assume it is the same everywhere.
I note that Walmarts are the place that campers now park for a short stop and it is somehow universally agreed that they be gone when their doors open. Sooner or later, something will make even this temporary option be a thing of the past too.
Up here is likely one of the last places you can run your 4 wheeler down the highway without being charged. A motorized vehicle has to have turn signals, high speed tires, seat belts, proper fenders and especially insurance to be allowed on the queen's highways. Natives would likely fill all the jail cells if they tried to impose that rule and the trappers would be there too. Then the hunters and you'd have to jail em all. And no one would ever pay a fine if they wrote the ticket...bad things would go wrong and the authorities know when not to push these folks too far. But we sympathize with the local camp owners enough to tolerate some dumb rules and most of us have plumbing anyways. Trappers shacks dont and most officials wouldn't mess with a trapper and not regret it!
It in fact walmart policy that you can park/camp overnight in their parking lots, this was a big deal many years back in Yellowknife, NWT, after it opened up as it cost the local campgrounds a good amount of money and they tried to make walmart change its policy, they said no.. and its been a battle that I have heard off and on for years now..
http://livingmydreamlifeonthefarm.wordpress.com/
A few of us ex-tourist guides were considering offering our services with houseboats and pontoon boats as a less expensive option to staying at expensive resorts. This would allow us to fish various locations including those lakes that whose only public water access was thru the local camps. The MNR was all over us with these "special rules" before we even got things started(told you gossip was fast)! Our boats would have to contain approved grey water tanks and there were so many regs (and fees, insurance, etc.) that would limit our plan that we dropped it! Only the bug boys can play here!
Topic heading off track a little.
It's very interesting information, worthy of its own thread, but I would like to see Villager's thread remain pure as he's working on something quite special.
It's coming... and it's going to hurt!
Thanks for the words of support, Oddmott, and congrats on your new child! That alone is a courageous project!
Yes, the community project is quite special too, but, a pity it seems that not enough potential participants know about it enough to appreciate its' potential/value, or simply have their own financial priorities.
It's a pity that such a large acreage in such unique location should slip thru our hands for lack of sufficient,flexible funding.
Each day that passes, i could receive a call that it's sold ,.... or perhaps a few more investors are prepared to join in.
I hope it's obvious to everyone that i can't post more details here, but am quite willing to PM.
It's a real conundrum to not be able to detail sufficiently to establish a basic honorable trust, yet share so much hope and yearning around many expressed ,common social values, ....not least of which is the resultant level of security, preparedness, inherent in a cohesive group's community.
At this point in "ourstory" on earth, what is more relevant for those in the still- blessed position to try to do something about it which is inclusive, greater than what we could singly achieve ?....and while $ has relative value to enable it ?
(pardon my runt-rant; it's been quite a long time 🙂
Anyway, it's still on for now, for the mentioned location. Hoping to hear from more of y'all to share in this great opportunity ...to reach out and un-strange ourselves who would be happily more un-ified in daily fact and shared purpose.
Don't settle for less?
I sympathize with your lack of membership and wish that folks today could trust enough to achieve that which your attempting. Still, your chances of recruitment success are likely greater in a higher populated area, while the trust issue likely runs in the opposite direction accordingly. And if we all had the 60's mentality, we wouldn't feel the need to move...so by the time they have been forced into reconsidering those options out of basic need, it will be too late to consider.
yet while I see the perspective, I can understand others hesitation as we all likely have been taken for a ride at some time in our lives. And while no one likely wants Rambo for a neighbour in peace times, his company would surely be appreciated in bad times. And while everyone wants all trusting, happy go lucky buddy Bob as a neighbour in peace times, he would be a weak link should bad times occur! And while Bob presently shines in community organization, would he step aside to let Rambo play boss when SHTF. Trust is some you earn although it can take take years to earn the amount required for such as this....
Remember when you first left home, you had to find room mates to reduce the expenses involved compared to living alone. Likely at first, you looked at the newspaper and applied to the adds "roommate wanted". You got there and you checked them out as they did the same with you. Their judgement may have been altered somewhat by their need to pay the next bills, but somehow the gaps were bridged and you both won(or not)! Well upon reflection, that person first had to pay all required up front and by having done so, they now acquired the power to pick and choose while the applicants only got to accept if they were chosen. Also you got to set the rules and maybe even allow for a cushion since you did all the work!
That scenario is what I see would likely have to happen. It still has it's follies, but it is likely more doable as you progressed along. And when it was really functional, you will likely get to pick amongst many instead of a few...