I've been on the other side of the fence when it comes to security and defense. When I was an 8 year old boy growing up in a third world country, I had to flee my home with my father and 4 year old brother because there was a massive coup d'etat. There were rebel forces closing in on the military base, shooting in the streets, planes strafing from the air, and we were trapped in the middle. We would hide, then leave because grenades were exploding nearby, and have to double back because the fighting was moving in our direction again. I was mostly terrified of the stones and dirt that were being flung around, and disoriented from the mere shockwaves of explosions. The rebels were shooting anything that moved, but a group of us escaped through a series of joined homes. Others were not so lucky. I got to witness firsthand what it looks like to panic, run outside, be shot, and slowly fade away. After about 2-3 hours of uncertainty and terror, we made it to safety, and took shelter at an aunt's house about 35 km away.

Things I learned...

1. Community/connections are vital - without our network of family and friends, we would have had nowhere to go.
2. Don't shoot if you don't have to. Sometimes, avoidance/fleeing is the best policy - my father was a retired navy lieutenant, and he was armed with his 1911 and M14 when we were escaping, but if he had chosen to fight our way out, we would likely not be here today. Silence is golden. Not a shot was fired.
3. Fitness, fitness, fitness. The roads were not safe to drive on, and my younger brother was only 4 years old. We walked/hiked 35km through dense vegetation (southeast asian jungle) and followed the river until we reached my aunt's house. I was exhausted. At one point, my father was carrying BOTH me and my brother. I'll never forget that. We probably weighed a combined 100-120 lbs.

In the end, the rebels were beaten back, and in retrospect, that experience is why I later served in the air force for a few years. I'm Canadian now. 🙂

Sorry for hijacking the thread, I just wanted to add my own experience.

I do have a question for the local (Canadian/American) experts though.

How do you make the decision to stay, or run?

Thanks. I suppose the same might apply to 7th Day Adventists. Great ideas.

Welcome to the forum Arie. I'm not sure this is what you have in mind specifically but perhaps the LDS/Mormon church has answers for you. I don't know if you can call them target hardened but definitely prep hardened.

S

Thanks. Good suggestions. 7th Day Advntists also might have some interesting perspectives.

I've been on the other side of the fence when it comes to security and defense. When I was an 8 year old boy growing up in a third world country, I had to flee my home with my father and 4 year old brother because there was a massive coup d'etat. There were rebel forces closing in on the military base, shooting in the streets, planes strafing from the air, and we were trapped in the middle. We would hide, then leave because grenades were exploding nearby, and have to double back because the fighting was moving in our direction again. I was mostly terrified of the stones and dirt that were being flung around, and disoriented from the mere shockwaves of explosions. The rebels were shooting anything that moved, but a group of us escaped through a series of joined homes. Others were not so lucky. I got to witness firsthand what it looks like to panic, run outside, be shot, and slowly fade away. After about 2-3 hours of uncertainty and terror, we made it to safety, and took shelter at an aunt's house about 35 km away.

Things I learned...

1. Community/connections are vital - without our network of family and friends, we would have had nowhere to go.
2. Don't shoot if you don't have to. Sometimes, avoidance/fleeing is the best policy - my father was a retired navy lieutenant, and he was armed with his 1911 and M14 when we were escaping, but if he had chosen to fight our way out, we would likely not be here today. Silence is golden. Not a shot was fired.
3. Fitness, fitness, fitness. The roads were not safe to drive on, and my younger brother was only 4 years old. We walked/hiked 35km through dense vegetation (southeast asian jungle) and followed the river until we reached my aunt's house. I was exhausted. At one point, my father was carrying BOTH me and my brother. I'll never forget that. We probably weighed a combined 100-120 lbs.

In the end, the rebels were beaten back, and in retrospect, that experience is why I later served in the air force for a few years. I'm Canadian now. 🙂

Sorry for hijacking the thread, I just wanted to add my own experience.

I do have a question for the local (Canadian/American) experts though.

How do you make the decision to stay, or run?

good story bud. Sorry that you have to go though such tough time. I am immigrant as well and I have served with many immigrants within the CF and many of them with similar stories.
Prepping is such universal thing in the rest of the world. A friend of mine in Serbia told me that his village hides AK 47 underground ( private ownership is not allow in Serbia I believe ) I asked him why ?
he said in this region every 10 years there is a war, 40 years there is a big war.

My answer ( not an expert )

is I chose to stay- like you say community is everything. I have the privileged have a strong network of friends and students within my city and I know in bad situation
these people can be trusted.

https://www.diehardsurvivor.com/be-warned-about-dangerous-intruders-by-making-this-diy-perimeter-tripwire/2/

Other one i like is also a mouse trap with a chemsticks. At least you see location they trip at night.

I have found the training the Canadians get to be quite good. In fact the average Canadian infantryman is as good as a US Army Ranger.

-S.

Keep dreaming. A regular Canadian grunt is not as good as a Ranger, maybe as good as U.S. Army airborne or California national Guard, or 1st battalion of the second division of the Salvation Army. But a Army Ranger, is almost as Good as a U.S. Marine. But not really, and I know no Canadian grunt is trained that good. Maybe those jp4 guys or wd40 can't remember the cute name they have nice ski-doo's tho Eh! 😆

So Devil Dog 3500, let me ask you, what are you doing in my country? Who invited you? Who wants you to stay? Do you think you would be missed if you left? How did a un-convicted war criminal like yourself get here? 😀 I do know Canada has low standards, I just didn't think they were that low.

Good tip termoshad, I would have thought a rat trap would be needed.

I have found the training the Canadians get to be quite good. In fact the average Canadian infantryman is as good as a US Army Ranger.

-S.

Keep dreaming. A regular Canadian grunt is not as good as a Ranger, maybe as good as U.S. Army airborne or California national Guard, or 1st battalion of the second division of the Salvation Army. But a Army Ranger, is almost as Good as a U.S. Marine. But not really, and I know no Canadian grunt is trained that good. Maybe those jp4 guys or wd40 can't remember the cute name they have nice ski-doo's tho Eh! 😆

Training for the U.S. foot soldier (regardless of Branch) is much more specialized than in Canada. Because of its size, there is a higher degree of specific expertise. It can be said that they are better trained than the Canadian soldier, but only in their area of expertise. That does not mean that they're 'better' trained. The Canadian has to perform multiple functions and be a jack of all trades and sometimes a master of some.

These are different approaches. The multi-disciplinary approach is adopted by U.S. Special Forces and the Navy Seals (and to a lesser degree by U.S. Army Rangers). These units must act independently without a large support system (similar to any smaller unit like the Canadian Army). Perhaps it's more productive to compare the lists of Military Occupational Specialties (MOS) to better understand my point.

Devil Dog, my uncle Van was a U.S. Marine Colonel (and Marine Legend) who won his second Navy Cross in Vietnam. I have a good idea of what it takes to be a Marine and I respect each and every one of them. I've also been privileged to attend the U.S. Army Ranger School through NATO and am a 'tabbed Ranger.' Don't be so quick to put down the abilities of the Canadian soldier. You do him and yourself a disservice.

I feel disloyal if I dont wade in here. Our reservists are trained to the US Army reg force standards nowadays. Our regular forces in all cbt arms are at least 2nd tier. Sub units can match or exceed tier 1s in some cases Snipers for example. Marines or unka sams misguided children if you want to call names achieve victory by shear weight of mass. After patrolling through both US & Cdn stabilized areas in multiple countries , shows a distinct difference in the way the aim was achieved.
If you look at the international force of arms competition our soldiers commonly do well down to Bn. levels.

I deleted some of these in error. The Canadian Armed Forces have 75 Military Occupational Specialties to cover Army, Navy, Air Force and Special Operations occupations. The following covers the U.S. Army only. As you see each job is highly specialized. For example, there is a separate person to work on helicopter repair for each of the types of helicopter flown by the U.S. Army. In Canada a helicopter mechanic must be able to repair any type that is utilized.

U.S. Army - Military Occupational Specialty

15R AH-64 Attack Helicopter Repairer
15X AH-64A Armament and Electrical System Repairer
15Y AH-64D Armament/Electrical/Avionics Repairer
14O Air Defense Artillery Officer
14Z Air Defense Artillery Senior Sergeant
94D Air Traffic Control Equipment Repairer
15Q Air Traffic Control Operator
15K Aircraft Components Repair Supervisor
15F Aircraft Electrician
15Z Aircraft Maintenance Senior Sergeant
15H Aircraft Pneudraulics Repairer
15B Aircraft Powerplant Repairer
15D Aircraft Powertrain Repairer
15G Aircraft Structural Repairer
921A Airdrop Systems Technician
350F All Source Intelligence Technician
91E Allied Trades Specialist (Machinist)
89B Ammunition Specialist
890A Ammunition Technician
68T Animal Care Specialist
45K Armament Repairer
19O Armor Officer
19Z Armor Senior Sergeant
63D Artillery Mechanic
92A Automated Logistical Specialist
39B Automatic Test Equipment Operator and Maintainer
915A Automotive Maintenance Warrant Officer
14S AVENGER Crewmember
27T AVENGER System Repairer
15O Aviation Officer
15P Aviation Operations Specialist
94L Avionic Communications Equipment Repairer
15N Avionic Mechanic
94R Avionic Radar Repairer
02Z Bands Senior Sergeant
02C Baritone or Euphonium Player
02K Bassoon Player
68A Biomedical Equipment Specialist
14R Bradley Linebacker Crewmember
21C Bridge Crewmember
46R Broadcast Journalist
25L Cable Systems lnstaller - Maintainer
13B Cannon Crewmember
13E Cannon Fire Direction Specialist
88H Cargo Specialist
21W Carpentry and Masonry Specialist
19D Cavalry Scout
27G CHAPARRAL and REDEYE Repairer
56O Chaplain
56M Chaplain Assistant
74D Chemical Operations Specialist
74O Chemical, Biological, Radiological and Nuclear (CBRN) Officer
38O Civil Affairs Officer
02J Clarinet Player
73BO Clinical Psychologist
25V Combat Documentation & Production Specialist
21B Combat Engineer
21Z Combat Engineering Senior Sergeant
35H Common Ground Station Operator
98H Communications Locator/Interceptor
21V Concrete and Asphalt Equipment Operator
21H Construction Engineering Supervisor
91L Construction Equipment Repairer
21N Construction Equipment Supervisor
02B Cornet or Trumpet Player
31E Corrections Specialist
351L Counter Intelligence Technician
97Z Counterintelligence / Human Intelligence Senior Sergeant
35L Counterintelligence Agent
21F Crane Operator
31D Criminal Investigation Special Agent
35P Cryptologic Communications
98G Cryptologic Linguist
63O Dental Corps Officer
68E Dental Specialist
21D Diver
14J Early Warning System Operator
02U Electric Bass Guitar Player
98J Electronic Intelligence Interceptor/Analyst
94W Electronic Maintenance Chief
29E Electronic Warfare Specialist
12O Engineer Officer
89D Explosive Ordnance Disposal Specialist
13R Field Artillery Firefinder Radar Operator
13W Field Artillery Meteorological Crewmember
13O Field Artillery Officer
13Z Field Artillery Senior Sergeant
13S Field Artillery Surveyor
13D Field Artillery Tactical Data Systems Specialist
131A Field Artillery Targeting Technician
36B Financial Management Technician
45G Fire Control System Repairer
13F Fire Support Specialist
21M Firefighter
61NO Flight Surgeon
02G Flute or Piccolo Player
92G Food Service Specialist
02D French Horn Player
21J General Construction Equipment Operator
21X General Engineering Supervisor
96R Ground Surveillance Systems Operator
02T Guitar Player
21 Combat Medic
21E Heavy Construction Equipment Operator
63S Heavy-Wheel Vehicle Mechanic
68M Hospital Food Service Specialist
351M Human Intelligence Collection Technician
35M Human Intelligence Collector
42BO Human Resources Officer
42A Human Resources Specialist
420A Human Resources Technician
35G Imagery Analyst
350G Imagery Intelligence Technician
11C Indirect Fire Infantryman
11O Infantry Officer
11Z Infantry Senior Sergeant
11B Infantryman
30AO Information Operations Officer
25Y Information Systems Chief
255A Information Systems Technician
25B Information Technologies Specialist
94Y Integrated Family of Test Equipment Operator and Maintainer
35F Intelligence Analyst
96Z Intelligence Senior Sergeant
21R Interior Electrician
27O Jag Corps Attorney
02N Keyboard Player
94A Land Combat Electrician
27E Land Combat Electronic Missile System Repairer
57E Laundry & Shower Specialist
63B Light-Wheel Vehicle Mechanic
21L Lithographer
90AO Logistics Officer
63A M1 ABRAMS Systems Maintainer
19K M1 Armor Crewman
63M M2/3 Bradley Fighting Vehicle System Maintainer
44E Machinist
63Z Mechanical Maintenance Supervisor
62O Medical Corps Officer
68K Medical Laboratory Specialist
68J Medical Logistics Specialist
70H Medical Operations Officer
67O Medical Service Corps Officer
65O Medical Specialist Corps Officer
15U Medium Helicopter Repairer
68X Mental Health Specialist
44B Metal Worker
25P Microwave Systems Operator - Maintainer
35O Military Intelligence Officer
35T Military Intelligence Systems Maintainer/Integrator
31O Military Police Officer
882A Mobility Officer
92M Mortuary Affairs Specialist
88M Motor Transport Operator
25Q Multichannel Transmission Systems Operator - Maintainer
25M Multimedia Illustrator
13M Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) Crewmember
13P Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) Operations/Fire Detection Specialist
27M Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) Repairer
25F Network Switching Systems Operator - Maintainer
25N Nodal Network Systems Operator-Maintainer
66O Nurse Corps Officer
02H Oboe Player
15J OH-58D Armament, Electrical, Avionics Sytems Repairer
15S OH-58D Helicopter Repairer
68D Operating Room Specialist
68H Optical Laboratory Specialist
91O Ordnance Officer
92R Parachute Rigger
68G Patient Administration Specialist
14E PATRIOT Fire Control Enhanced Operator and Maintainer
94S PATRIOT System Repairer
02M Percussion Player
92L Petroleum Laboratory Specialist
92F Petroleum Supply Specialist
68Q Pharmacy Specialist
21K Plumber
52D Power-Generation Equipment Repairer
68S Preventive Medicine Specialist
21P Prime Power Production Specialist
920A Property Accounting Technician
37F Psychological Operations Specialist
46Z Public Affairs Chief
46Q Public Affairs Specialist
21G Quarrying Specialist
63J Quartermaster and Chemical Equipment Repairer
92O Quartermaster Officer
94M Radar Repairer
94E Radio and Communications Security Repairer
25C Radio Operator - Maintainer
68P Radiology Specialist
79R Recruiter NCO
79T Recruiting and Retention NCO
68V Respiratory Specialist
79S Retention NCO
25S Satellite Communication Systems Operator - Maintainer
25T Satellite/Microwave Systems Chief
02L Saxophone Player
94Z Senior Electronic Maintenance Chief
42HO Senior Human Resources Officer
92Z Senior Noncommissioned Logistician
25X Senior Signal Sergeant
25O Signal Officer
25U Signal Support Systems Specialist
98K Signals Collection/Identification Analyst
35N Signals Intelligence Analyist
98C Signals Intelligence Analyst
98Z Signals Intelligence Senior Sergeant
254A Signals Systems Technician
57AO Simulations Operations Officer
45B Small Arms/Artillery Repairer
42S Special Band Member
94F Special Electronic Devices Repairer
18F Special Forces Assistant Operations & Intelligence Sergeant
18E Special Forces Communications Sergeant
18C Special Forces Engineer Sergeant
18D Special Forces Medical Sergeant
18O Special Forces Officer
18Z Special Forces Senior Sergeant
180W Special Forces Warrant Officer
18B Special Forces Weapons Sergeant
920B Supply Systems Technician
53AO Systems Automation Management Officer
13C Tactical Automated Fire Control Systems (TAFCS) Specialist
96U Tactical Unmanned Aerial Vehicle Operator
21T Technical Engineering Specialist
94J Telecommunication Terminal Device Repairer
25D Telecommunications Operator - Maintainer
94H Test, Measurement, and Diagnostic Equipment Support Specialist
21U Topographic Analyst
21Y Topographic Engineering Supervisor
21S Topographic Surveyor
63Y Track Vehicle Mechanic
63H Track Vehicle Repairer
21Q Transmission and Distribution Specialist
88N Transportation Management Coordinator
88O Transportation Officer
88Z Transportation Senior Sergeant
02E Trombone Player
02F Tuba Player
52F Turbine Engine Driven Generator Repairer
15T UH-60 Helicopter Repairer
92Y Unit Supply Specialist
52C Utilities Equipment Repairer
15M Utility Helicopter Repairer
64O Veterinary Corps Officer
68R Veterinary Food Inspection Specialist
25Z Visual Information Operations Chief
352P Voice Interception Technician
92W Water Treatment Specialist
88L Watercraft Engineer
88K Watercraft Operator
63W Wheel Vehicle Repairer
94N Wire Systems Equipment Repairer

Wayne, there is some truth to your point, but it doesn't show the whole thing. Allow me to chime in as a chopper driver having worked around the block a bit. A 15H aircraft pneudraulics tech is trained in something like 16 weeks at Ft Eustis VA following a 16ish week basic training course (don't quote me on exact duration, I'd say I may. E off by a week or 2). The goal is fast train, fast employ and if the guy stays in, train him more in time. Canada trains an helicopter tech for a year in Borden, get their "type course" that last a few more months (6?) then they start getting hands on. That is on top of basic training and all that good stuff. They maybe better techs but took a long time to train, including lots of ressources spent in the process. I suspect this is the same in most MOCs (though I don't think Canadian Army has an MOC for French horn players or hospital food specialists).

So one-for-one, I'd say Canadians are better soldiers than their southern counterparts. But when it matters, they just throw a division or two (or a Corps...) at it and the quantity beats quality...

Thanks helicopilot. The point that I was trying to make (albeit not very well), is that if all you do is repair Apache engines, you would likely get pretty good at it. Locally here (Shearwater) the guys had to repair Sea Kings, Cormorants, Cyclones, Labradors and Hueys. As well as Coast Guard Bo-105s, 206's and 212's. They don't have the luxury of dealing with only one type of helicopter. Although the U.S. counterpart might claim he's really good at what he does, he can rely on other 'specialists' to repair other designs. The Canadians have to be much more versatile. I'm aware that appropriate training is required, but they have to adapt.

Similarly in fixed wing. When I was stationed in Downsview the guys had to look after our Otters as well as the two CF-116 (CF-5) we had 'on-loan' from 410 Squadron, Bagotville. Now that's versatility... 🙂

The RCN has a trade as bandsman... many a day at MSE Fleet School listening to the music. 😕

Good day all, I have a question for all those interested.

I prep for a very broad range of events and disasters that may impact my comfy lift in Southern Saskatchewan. Included in these prep plans, is being on the receiving end of a search and destroy mission, say after an invasion with a semi-competent fighting force.

I understand that nowadays many aerial units, ie helicopters have been fitted with FLIR technology. I also know that Hollywood has given many (probably) false scenes with this technology in action.

I want to know that if you are being tracked by a helicopter, is FLIR going to be the end of that, or is it not advanced enough to be an end-all? I know that certain cover can foil the thermal image, so lets touch on a wide variety of terrain.
Plains?
Light forest?
Dense forest?
Snow covered terrain? (Assuming tracks were blown away)

I'm not a security expert. But this is an example of what LE can do. The foot chase is in the last part of the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIjnbcLaM0Q