[. I gave you my opinion on the SKS and the other chinese crap but buy all means give your advice to people. but when somebody who knows what the hell they are talking about says something, all you video painball mercenaries get your panties in a knot lol When I read some of the tottal crap people say I find it hard to hold my tongue but buy all mean ban me hey I am just a guest and no nothing and you have 5000 posts
In all my lifes experiences, including almost 20 years as an infantry soldier, there's one thing I've learned. The best instructors try to help others understand the why and how of things. Then there are the others. They think that the best way to teach is through the use of sarcasm and insults. Anyone care to try and guess which ones ended up with the best students. You can have the most impressive credentials around but if your idea of helping others is to belittle and insult them, your credentials aren't worth the paper they're written on. Try enlightening others instead of just telling them they're stupid, you may just get a better reception. The reason some people have been around long enough to have 5000 posts is because they express their knowledge and opinions in a way that makes people actually want to read more from them. If you think someones post is way out in left field, explain why in an adult manner instead of just calling them an idiot. The people on this forum are here to learn and share, not to be insulted.
Those who are unwilling to defend freedom, will become unfree.
3rd Inf Div 11B Stationed out of Ft Stewart Tip of the spear all that crap Trained for Q school (accepted but pulled for duty), Ranger tabed. Injured in Bagdad, joined to get training for no other reason than to get a better pay cheque from PMC's servered In 3 differant conflicts after Disschared . I have my DD214 fully honorably discharged. Thown out of FFL for strikeing an officer (beating near death) wile in training. I gave you my opinion on the SKS and the other chinese crap but buy all means give your advice to people. but when somebody who knows what the hell they are talking about says something, all you video painball mercenaries get your panties in a knot lol When I read some of the tottal crap people say I find it hard to hold my tongue but buy all mean ban me hey I am just a guest and no nothing and you have 5000 posts
your such a bad ass. best of luck to you
See you all after.
Buggie; Darwin was asked to give his opinion then was asked for his credentials, which he supplied in a very blunt Infantry way, as that is how 99% of us all talk, then and now although we do normally tone it down when we get older.
Darwin, please read my email and follow the polite suggestions.
Everyone here is a guest, including the Head Moderator, so the Guest JAB as well as the Guest Taz along with myself also a guest (all ex military as well) try to follow the rules of being in someone's house. I try to not say anything that my Grandmother would get mad at me for, although in the past I have also blown a gasket at times here!
SKS, is battle proven only because there are so many of them, they are not the greatest thing since slice cheese either, only cheap and plentiful. They do the job, most times though they are prone to certain problems as well. The AR 15 series has issues as well, the stopping because of grass thing was only in the First generation batches, most are well past that point now. There are also ways to make them operate under more adverse scenarios now.
Buy the SKS as it is cheap, then save up for a much better, all around weapon, then this lighter, shorter range firearm can then be used by Teenagers as well as Smaller Women for training and if needed for other situations as well.
If someone is new to firearms then most proper instructors will tell them to get started with a .22 cal, some of them have very decent load capacities as well as most are very accurate. The bonus is cheap cheap cheap and then cheaper ammo! There is no ammo as cheap and as worry free as the .22 until you go to the BB and Pellet rifles, then well they are even cheaper as well for the ammo, as having their place in any Preppers tool bag.
Taz, JAB as well as JWild can all point you to information as well as supply info on reasons for various firearms tools. Both Taz and Jwild work in gun shops and have thousands of hours downrange so they are up on the newer tools you might be asking for. I have been out of the loop for a while now, if you want I can supply my background as well as range and bush experiences on request, my suggestions would be for Tools that I am familiar with as well as those I plain know to work. So in short SKS alright, others much better,
cheers and lets all take it down a notch please and thanks.
Darwin:
No the SKS is not the end all, be all rifle.
No, I am not a soldier, but I am a sportsman who has been competing for 30 years and a prepper for 7 years.
Its a cheap, reliable, mid-range rifle available in a very common caliber. It goes bang when you pull the trigger. Ammo is cheap so you can pull the trigger more often. Its not the gun that makes the marksman, its the practice. You should know this.
The gun itself is a tool. The OP was looking for a cheap centre fire rifle and lots of rounds. The SKS fits the bill. A prepper needs more than one tool in the box, but if one is all he can afford, there are worse ways to go.
Remember, this is about prepping, not fighting in a war. The prepper needs a rifle that bring down game at short to medium range, and function as an effective self defence tool. The SKS can do both just fine. It will do neither without practice.
If the OP finds themselves in a situation where they need to fire hundreds of rounds, they've made a fundamental mistake somewhere along the line. No regular civilian will be fighting a battle requiring the use the of 100s of rounds. If they are, they are dead. So is the soldier. There are no one man armies. That is hollywood crap.
I think all preppers need at least 3 guns. A rifle, a shotgun and a pistol. The pistol is a personal defence gun, designed to be easily carried at all times. Speaks for itself. The rifle is for game and mid-range defence. The shotgun is a better all around tool for game AND self defence IMO. Variety of loads means you can shoot birds, deer, or predators at closer ranges. Can't hunt bird with a .30 cal rifle. At close ranges, the shotgun is the tool. If I am walking in the woods, I prefer a shotgun for hunting. If I am in a more open area, I'll use a rifle. The range determines the tool. The drawback to shotguns is size, weight and cost of ammo, plus they are useless beyond 100m.
In a perfect world, a prepper should have 5 guns. In addition to the 3 above, add a scoped bolt action in .30 cal for long ranges. Another should be a .22 for all around plinking, practice, varmints etc.
Tools in the toolbox. You don't have just one screwdriver or hammer in there. But if all you can afford is one....
Muzzle,
excellently said and politely said, sound and true reasoning, hopefully the OP will have a better handle on the situation and tools now.
Yup never been to combat never actually shot a human faster than a speeding bullet at relaoding with a battle proven wepon from WW2 mohamedbruceleenorris you are a frickin idiot that I will say you are an expert in.
Whoooah!
A little late to the party....sorry.
Darwin gets 1 week off for rude behavior / name calling.
The rest of you showed amazing restraint and impressive demeanor!
Im looking for a centre fire rifle that has stopping power and also delivers a high volume of rounds downrange. I know it can be a pretty open question.. im leaning towards a Ruger mini 30, (for the larger 7.62 rounds) or the Norinco M14. Dont know much about either, but am open to suggestions. It seems there are some ex CF guys out there. let me know what your thinking. (Im staying away from the .223 BTW) Any links to gun dealers in Canada would be nice too.
Thanks,
The Beav
I have been thinking about this for awhile and have done some research for you.
As a Canadian with a PAL you can purchase a non-restricted CZ-858 in 7.62x39B at Wolverine Supplies for CDN$695.00-750.00. I have operational experience with this rifle and while it is a tough little cookie it is not quite as ergonomic as an AR. However, the price is excellent for the frugal prepper who hasn't had a lot of gunfighter training and is more interested in taking game.
Now as far as using it in a prolonged fire fight there are three things I have to say to that...
1). Don't, the barrel is a pretty narrow profile and hasn't got a lot of heat sinking capability. It will be able to run a couple of mags before you have to give it a rest or the long term durability of the barrel will suffer.
2). Learn how to place shots quickly and accurately while exposing as little of yourself as possible. The mag catch hinders fast reloads and one cannot do the "AK-Catch" rapid mag change with this rifle.
3). When you're moving, be sure your mag is fresh and keep your bounds short so you can sprint and minimize exposure so that you won't run a mag dry and get caught in the open trying to reload what is definitely a teamwork weapon.
If anybody in the Calgary Area wants to know how to make the most of their rifles/pistols/shotguns just fire me a PM.
-S.
"It's not what you have, but what you have done".
-S.
fyi they also offer the cz858 with a side folding fire stock, making it alittle bit more transportable, even with the long barrel. If you decide to go the restricted route, they also offer a short barreled model.
See you all after.
if you are going to do any amount of shooting and not plan to reload, then break out the checkbook, 30 cal ammo is costly.
it depends on what your plans are for shooting, long range, type of game, or just plinking around.
.223 is cheap and pretty effective out to about 400 yrds. I shoot a 25-06 for long range 600+ yrds, and reload my own ammo.
you are not going to find any high volume rounds as our government has restricted us to 5 round mags. I have some 30 round mags for my AR and Black Special, but they are pinned at 5 rounds.
If you just want something over all in a 30 cal thats pretty cheap to shoot, then get yourself a 30-30.
Badges?, Don't need no stinkin Badges
if you are going to do any amount of shooting and not plan to reload, then break out the checkbook, 30 cal ammo is costly.
it depends on what your plans are for shooting, long range, type of game, or just plinking around.
.223 is cheap and pretty effective out to about 400 yrds. I shoot a 25-06 for long range 600+ yrds, and reload my own ammo.
you are not going to find any high volume rounds as our government has restricted us to 5 round mags. I have some 30 round mags for my AR and Black Special, but they are pinned at 5 rounds.
If you just want something over all in a 30 cal thats pretty cheap to shoot, then get yourself a 30-30.
He can go just about anywhere and spend CDN$200.00-250.00 and get 1200rds of 7.62x39B. That's $0.17-0.21/rd.
-S.
"It's not what you have, but what you have done".
-S.
I have been thinking about this for awhile and have done some research for you.
As a Canadian with a PAL you can purchase a non-restricted CZ-858 in 7.62x39B at Wolverine Supplies for CDN$695.00-750.00. I have operational experience with this rifle and while it is a tough little cookie it is not quite as ergonomic as an AR. However, the price is excellent for the frugal prepper who hasn't had a lot of gunfighter training and is more interested in taking game.
Now as far as using it in a prolonged fire fight there are three things I have to say to that...
1). Don't, the barrel is a pretty narrow profile and hasn't got a lot of heat sinking capability. It will be able to run a couple of mags before you have to give it a rest or the long term durability of the barrel will suffer.
2). Learn how to place shots quickly and accurately while exposing as little of yourself as possible. The mag catch hinders fast reloads and one cannot do the "AK-Catch" rapid mag change with this rifle.
3). When you're moving, be sure your mag is fresh and keep your bounds short so you can sprint and minimize exposure so that you won't run a mag dry and get caught in the open trying to reload what is definitely a teamwork weapon.
If anybody in the Calgary Area wants to know how to make the most of their rifles/pistols/shotguns just fire me a PM.
-S.
Thanks for this as I had logged in today to ask this exact question... I have been looking at the cz 858 with the synthetic stock and was wondering about some of the pros and cons.
Also, people keeping bashing the .223 because it is designed by the military to only wound... if we are trying to hold off some bronze horde thugs then wouldn't having a bunch of wounded amongst them be just as effective as bodies? I'm assuming that trained soldiers are 'trained' to deal with all the crying and moaning and getting on with the killing. Would the bronze horde be capable of continuing an effective assault if members of their bowling team were screaming and writhing on the ground? I know that the cz is the larger caliber, but in general, I'm curious why all the 5.56 bashing?
thanks,
Dang,
To try to address your question, regarding bashing the 5.56mm NATO round as a prime prepper calibre. The .223 Rem or 5.56x45mm NATO is at best a varmit cartridge. It is very fast, 3200 fps but the bullets are generally very light 52 grains. The resulting trajectory is quite flat for 300m, quite shootable to 500m. The energy at 300m or 500m, I do not recall of the top off my head. Sorry, I must be getting old, lol. So, for punching paper target or varmits these are good characteristics, also the felt recoil in a 7lbs rifle is hardly noticable if you are more than 175lbs.
As stated elsewhere, the 5.56 was adopted by the military because the individual soldier can easily carry 150 - 300 rounds for their everyday carry. If a soldier was using a FN FAL, M-1A, AR-10 or any other 7.62x51mm NATO rifle the basic load drops to 120 rounds. Also, in military doctrine to wound the enemy is preferable to killing them because a wounded soldier takes at least 4 solders to get him off the field of battle plus the transport to get to a field hospital and then the hospital staff to repair the soldier and get him ready to return to the front. All these people, resources, time and effort cost $$$. Thus, if you can bankrupt your enemy he will surrender and you do not have to kill them all to win. So, in the big picture it makes sense for a conventional military engagement to created wounded enemies.
Now for a SHTF or TEOTWAWKI scenario where a small isolated group is over run by a hostile force that is larger and ruthless it make sense to only have to deal with its membership once. This is of course a hypothetical situation. You want to use a weapons that erase the problem on the first shot or maybe the second shot. Conserve ammo and do the most damage as quickly and efficiently as possible. That is the defence role of a heavier calibre.
On the survival role, a heavier calibre will take larger game or take game at a further distance, safely. Yes, you can take a deer sized animal with a single shot .22LR, but in normal times that practice is illegal. In fact many provinces, the laws were changed so that deer sized game must be taken with cartridges larger that .22. So, a whole host of reliable cartridges were no longer allowed to be used for deer, even though they could easily take a deer. .223 Rem and .222 Rem use to take a lot of deer. So I guess for legal reasons many suggest having a heavier cartridge than .223 Rem.
I am sure a few more will chime in and give you some more reasons why the poor 5.56mm is bashed so hard.
Maybe this helped....
Mountainman.
I assure you, the 5.56N round was not made to injure. It is made to stop the threat as efficiently as possible. Whenever I have had to use it, the X-ray did not get back up. I have personally seen a Muj catch a round from an M-39 at 20m and he turned and fired upon us. It has, is and always shall be about shot placement. There is no magic round. YOU STILL HAVE TO DO YOUR PART.
-S.
"It's not what you have, but what you have done".
-S.
Any FMJ round will produce the wounding effect. A hollow point or soft point 223 is quite the effective man stopper. I agree, the larger calibre's are more versatile (hunting,etc..) but for a defensive weapon, a .223(5.56) is a good choice as it can shoot flat with little recoil. This can be shot well by anyone...the larger calibres can't claim the same. Cheaper mil surp ammo for the 5.56 is a bonus too.
Chance favours the prepared mind
Thank you all for the time, much appreciated.
The Beav