however the information is good and relevant for your province.

Cheers,

Antsy

Antsy......no. I don't even think its good or relevant for his province...I should just mix my next drink 3 fingers and try to forget I seen that.... If he just said I installed this system to earn money doing net feed back, fine, whatever I would give him a thumbs up and say rock on dude, but no he is trying to pass this off as some well thought out system, maybe relevant for others...and a hour to yap away and provide so little value, and yet he seems proud of what he has done, and spent 🙄
I feel sorry for those people who had to sit through that., and I am wondering why he even made that vid and it oquride to me by his brand dropping, I suspect he was offered free firmware upgrades by the manufacturers if would plug their products. I just cant type out sentence by sentence what I object to as I have things to do...Like sleep . I cant remember for sure, and I will not go back to check but he has something like 35 panels, with individual AC inverters attached. he yaps about how long solar panels last (30 + years)and I am in full agreement, but he makes no mention of the 35 inverters....on a hot roof ... for the sake of argument I will give him 10 trouble free years 🙄 Did you look at the roof he has these mounted on. That roof is not serviceable without a genie lift. This will be a two man job with a lift...in rural NS!! he will not get away with anything less than a 4 figure labour, equipment charge!!!! he has no accounting for this in his projected costs...He had to design this himself 😕 ....just to give you a idea of how bad this is, he talks about how his electric hot water is provided by roughly 2 hours at the night time charge rate for heating water,( as his hot water panel does not provide enough). ....think about this..he has 8 thousand watts of panels but he runs his electric hot water from the grid at night!! This means he must be paid more for production from his panels during the day. Great if your in business selling power back to the grid, useless info for anyone who wants to save on electrical power consumption, or go off grid. as little as 1000 watts in panels will provide hot water for a couple in most of Canada 9 months of the year, yet he with his 8 thousand watts in panels has to buy power to heat his hot water!!
By the way he talks about 25 year warranty on the system....BS!!! yes you may get a parts warranty of 25 years, you do not get warranty irrespective of location or conditions (steep roof), and equipment needed.....

The problem with utube vids is you cant challenge or question the presenter directly.....

If I understand correctly, the talk was motivated to create a co-op of sorts for discounted hardware through a couple of different distributors in the area. I gladly defer to your judgement with respect to individual systems (as I have never set up a system of my own and have no expertise). What I thought was valuable about the talk was the information about NS Power rates, time of day pricing, and the economic case for sustainable energy vs. traditional energy sources. I think we can agree that most folks will be interested in tying a system into the grid vs. off grid living.

The wife and I will be setting up a solar system at our place in NS. For us, the system will have to be completely off grid as the closest NS Power poles are a mile away. We have gotten as far as deciding to build a "power shed" where the panels will be installed on a purpose build roof directed to the South sun for optimal exposure. The main converter and battery banks will be housed in the shed below and a tech cable run to the house. My hope is that should I put up an out-building I can run directly from the shed as well. The two thirds of the shed that are not required for utilities I intend to use for wood storage.

I appreciate the critique. It's good to have someone who has first hand experience and recognizes the shortcomings of a system. I agree that it's too bad that there is no opportunity to pose questions to the presenter.

We have a reliable solar guy around Picteu when you are ready. We also have friends working on the buyers coop but I would have to check how far they are along. Can I also suggest not putting them on a roof. When snow sticks to them you have to be able to reach them with a broom. Just my 2cents

I agree with peppercorn. I haven't commented on this video because there is sooooo many aspects wrong with the installation. I wouldn't know where to start.
Just not worth an hour of keyboard usage nor my precious prepping time to devote to it. Just don't refer to the video for any technical information.

I 2nd that, on the ground if possible, reach able by a broom or snow rake, if your off grid, and snow is stuck to your panels for a day or 3 you have problems! And climbing up on a roof to sweep them off gets old fast..likely after your first slip and fall you will be saying, why did I think this was a good idea.
At the start of that he can be heard saying something about establishing criteria for his decisions ....likely some convoluted bs . Just as well I am not in his audience...after a few questions he would be calling security..
He started off full of bs...claiming 240 volt micro inverters are the new standard,(240 micro inverters are jut one way for back feeding) and if you don't go this way shading of one panel drops the output from all...nonsense, you cant claim that, yes depending on how and what parts are used that may happen, but who would design a system that way. say you have a 12, 24, or 48 volt system, if your panels are hooked in Parallel to your charge controller, cover as many panels as you wish and you only lose the output from the covered panel.
If he would just have said this is optimized for grid tie net metering, selling back to the grid for profit.....fine whatever but he is trying to pretend his system is also designed for low consumption of power, and affordable, a example for others.....nonsense, by his own admission he is using 3300+5400kwhs=8700kwhs a year of power bought from the grid, as he said 12000kwhs a year is the Canadian average for a home, and I agree, that works out to 32.8 kwhrs a day for a average home. he buys 8700kwhs of power or 23.8kwhrs a day!!! And he is buying this much power after spending 30,000 dollars on a solar system....he is trying to polish a turd with mathematics that would make a economist proud!!
He s a mechanical engineer, and this vid is proof they can be full of it.
Not slamming you for posting, this is just one vid of a long parade of bs info on the net.

This was posted elsewhere and I will repost it here http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/Canada/ID/2649809971/
As it is in my experience honest, and very typical of working systems, and by her admission could be done for 10,000 today ( I say half that but its a mute point)
the people in that audience (first vid)would learn more talking with the lady in my link for 5 minutes than the 55 minutes or so of that engineer.
I gave his vid a thumbs down, I better step away from the computer, and go stack wood, I feel a mppt rant coming next....

Oh what the hell, since I am on a rant as far as I am concerned those recommending mppt on any battery based system are pretty much full of it, oh I know that's likely most experts you talk to, but I will put a stake in the ground on this, and say no, this will cost you more short and long term, and likely give you poorer performance, yep I know they sell lots of them....the smart money goes into the simple pwm contolers and more panels, instead of mppt.......I am not worried about going against the tide on this time will prove me right 😉 when your dealing with a solar expert-salesman and he starts spouting off about how you will get 30 percent more performance out of your off grid system with mppt, he either thinks your a idiot, or he is one. He is going to make maybe 300 percent more!! selling you mppt!

ever seen data from two identical off grid battery based systems side by side running identical loads, with the only difference being one with mppt, and one not....No ofcource not, all the magical benifits of mppt are only on paper, they don't transfer over into the real world on any properly designed battery based system, and that's why the mppt manufacturers don't have real world setups as I described, as that would prove their claims of gains as bs. I will drive that stake even further in the ground and say mppt has been completely obsoleted for battery based systems due to the drop in panel prices..

Damn it, I shouldn't get involved, but I can't help myself.
Let's look at the value of MPPT in a "real world" scenario.
Let's say I want to install 60 Amps (720 Watts) worth of solar charging power on my property. My optimal solar location is 50' away from my battery bank. I have a 12 Volt inverter and battery bank.

Let me work out what it would cost if I did PWM charging, then MPPT.

PWM:

5 x 150 watt (12V nominal) solar panels = $2395 ($495 x 5)
1 x Combiner Box = $167
5 x 15A breakers = $110 (5 x $22)
5 x 10' PV cables = $120 (5 x $24)
1 x 60A PWM Controller = $279
1 x 100' cable (350 MCM, cut in half for 2 lengths of 50', sized to carry the current with 2% voltage drop) = $589
Price so far: $3660 (or roughly $61 per amp of solar installed).

MPPT:
3 x 240W (24V nominal) solar panels = $720 ($240 x 3)
1 x combiner box = $139
1 x 15A breaker = $22
1 x 10' PV cable = $24
1 x 60A MPPT Controller = $679
1 x 100' cable (12 AWG, cut in half for 2 lengths of 50', sized to carry the current with 2% voltage drop) = $14
Price so far $1598 (or roughly $27 per amp of solar installed)

So, let's not get too worried about the cost of MPPT controllers. They can do things that PWM controllers simply can't do, and they do save money in system costs.
If you're wondering where I got my prices, I pulled them from an on-line solar retailer in British Columbia.

Damn it, I shouldn't get involved, but I can't help myself.

Ahhh a disturbance in the force....the paradigm fights back...I roughly agree with your prices as stated...in fact they are a very typical example used to make a case for mppt.Those figures sure make it look bad for me 🙁 as they are supposed to....Time challenged at the moment with a trailer of wood to unload, but I will return to the ring 🙂
Now come on, is he the only one with a swinging pair here, Shirley there must be others..Stand with him and declare. I will take you all on

Damn it, I shouldn't get involved, but I can't help myself.

Ahhh a disturbance in the force....the paradigm fights back...I roughly agree with your prices as stated...in fact they are a very typical example used to make a case for mppt.Those figures sure make it look bad for me 🙁 as they are supposed to....Time challenged at the moment with a trailer of wood to unload, but I will return to the ring 🙂
Now come on, is he the only one with a swinging pair here, Shirley there must be others..Stand with him and declare. I will take you all on

I will surely wait for Shirley to let us know...

Ok I am ready but you know what, I am thinking we need someone to call this,you argueing your position and me mine. I just crunched the numbers and have you beat on cost with out getting unconventional like I thought I might have to, but somethings are also subjective like simplicity, and durability that I also think have value.....And while I don't challenge the costs you presented you might mine and I am always against giving free advertising, so if You call my data or I yours we can submit the info privately to whoever is calling this and they can verify the info and attest to its accuracy or not....object if you wish, assuming you don't, then I would like each of us (you already have ) to present our argument to Antsy to judge as he started the thread, just seems reasonable to me.... should he decline then maybe someone else would volunteer to call the stronger argument, over, under

I'm not going to debate you. There is no need. Your argument is valid, and so is mine.
Your argument was that the assertion that MPPT controllers capture 30% more energy compared to PWM is false, or at least grossly misleading. I agree.

I don't make that claim.

What I claim is that MPPT technology:
a) allows us to use solar voltages that are a mismatch to our battery system voltage
b) allows us to install solar further away from our battery banks with smaller gauge wire runs
c) saves money in overall system costs when (a) and (b) are used, and that the savings often outweigh the increased cost of the controller itself

That doesn't mean that MPPT is always needed, or always better.
In fact, from a prepping point of view, I would think that the KISS rule would apply. Keep your back-up systems simple, using solar panels that match your battery voltage and a good PWM controller (keeping another in a faraday cage).

Oky doky,

12 volt panels at 495, yes you can pay that...I wont,you shouldn't, try 145 watt panels 199.00 Canadian manufacter, from brick and mortar store in Canada, maxpv 17.9 at 8.09 amps so 995.00 I could even get them less ( even with the exchange rate)from ebay with free shipping.So 725 watts in panels, 5 watts more than you for 995.00

60 amp charge controller, brick and mortar store stocked in Edmonton 239.00, But on line I found way better pricing for a different model that will do the job for 136.53
So my total is 1131.53 so far, now you claimed 110 and 167 for combiner box and breakers, well you could do that and spend that but who would? fuses, holder and box 60.00 allinclusive from homedepot...here is a link to a guy http://forum.solar-electric.com/forum/solar-electric-power-wind-power-balance-of-system/off-grid-solar-battery-systems/14186-my-25-combiner-box-with-fusing building his own, he is using 4x4 pvc box I use 6x6 just cause I like more room (prices higher here)
So I am up to 1191.53
Now as for wiring, a couple ways to go,
Now I wouldn't likely do this but I can buy code approved 10 gauge solar hook up wire for .53 cents per foot (full retail in Canada),( the stuff comes on 500 foot spools) so since I only have to beat your price, lets say for fun I run from my fused box individual lines all the way back to my charge controller, two 10 gage lines for each of the 5 panels so 500 feet total or 265 dollars more bringing me to a total cost of 1456.53....your cost with mppt 1598
So I have a extra 141.47 to spend...think Ill buy a case beer or 6.
In the real world I would likely have just run two 50 ft lengths of 4awg, or maybe 6awg instead of all that 10 gauge , doesn't much matter both my non mppt system and your non mppt sytem will absolutely charge the batteries identicaly, and with the same volt drop, or stunningly
close (you didn't provide your panel specs). we both would have identicaly working system... I just spent less...way less than 3660
Over/under

Underprepared is right you can pay 495 for 12 volt panels, people will quote those kind of prices if they think they can get away with it, as the 12 volt market has kind of been left to the RV market...people with lots of money who just want what they want when they want it, so sadly companies don't have to try and be competitive and as a result the price of 12 volt panels is now higher wrt 24volt panels per watt

So Underpreppared I have to ask, are you going to build your system my way or yours? and why please?

#and if you are going to object to my design on volt drop reasons, please state yours in volts or mv (rather than as a percentage)and provide your panel specs, so I may better, and more fully respond to anything you take issue with.

I'm pretty sure I said I wasn't going to debate this issue, but I will reply.
1. Panel cost is important. If a retailer in Canada is offering a 145 W panel for $199, that price is really TGTBT, so I'll call on Monday to confirm that. I might be able to use some of those here and there, but certainly not for any decent size system. Lots of USA vendors offer free shipping, but that doesn't include shipping to Canada. Even so, it's not the only consideration.
2. Blade type mobile fuses and blocks will not pass electrical inspection. I'm only concerned with using proper products. Anything can be duct taped, but that's not what I'm talking about. Square D breakers and boxes are DC rated, but I wouldn't want to install a steel box outside. It won't last, even if you do save a penny or two up front (although I doubt you will even save money up front).
3. Your wire run estimates are not correct. If you were to run a separate +ve and -ve pair of wires for each solar panel back to the battery bank, then you would need 4 AWG wires for each panel. That's about 92 cents a foot x 500 feet.
You want panel specs to confirm voltage drop calculations, but I doesn't matter which panel we're dealing with, as long as they are a standard 36 cell panel with Vmp of around 17 to 17.5 V. They're all going to have around 8+ A of Imp. Any voltage drop calculator will work.

Nevertheless, this whole price/design is structured around a very modest 720 watts of solar. Most people need considerably more solar than that. The more solar you add, the problem of current and voltage drop will just get worse. It is possible to increase the system voltage to 24 or 48V to compensate for increased system size. That would help a lot, but the problem would still exist as the system size grows (ie - 1440W of solar operating at 34V (24V nominal) has the same drop as 720W operating at 17).

In the end, who cares? Install it any way you want to. I'll let system size and distance dictate what needs to be installed, and I'm not going to have a predetermined negative opinion of MPPT. It has value.
For instance;
I was talking to a guy a month ago that had one 140 watt Kyocera panel installed outside his cottage and wanted a bit more power. He had a few options:
1. Sell the existing panel and put up one 250 watt panel which would be best utilized with a new controller to optimize the output, but he could have lived with a PWM controller working at less efficiency.
2. Add a second panel in parallel to the first. Replace the wire run with a larger size. Replace the existing PWM controller with a larger PWM controller.
3. Add a second panel in series to the first. Replace the existing PWM controller with an MPPT controller.

He opted for option 3 and loves it. He says his system works awesome now, and loves the data he gets on his system from the new controller.

I don't see any reason whatsoever to argue. Any one of the options would have worked. He picked the one he liked the most.