Does anyone want to get back to this? I don't. In many ways I can't wait for all of this to collapse. It sort of feels like an experiment gone wrong. I suppose it depends on how successful we've been in trying to destroy Big Mama. She'll determine what we get to do in the next round.

Good doc. This way of thinking might save our butts.
http://www.documentarywire.com/permaculture-a-quiet-revolution

I can not watch it tonight on my Rocket Stick, I love Permaculture though. That is my direction and future.

Thanks I didn't do it - Doco was well worth watching.

With nothing at all scientific to base it on maybe 20 years from today?
I don't think you'll ever be able to say "today is the day the SHTF" in an overall sense. On a personal level it will be the day we loose our job, actually the most common SHTF event for all of us. I've been expecting that day for a couple of years but the bank hasn't said my paycheck is NSF yet.
It will just regularly get a bit worse and one day it will begin to improve and years later you might be able to say "20xx was the worst".
In the depression it was probably 1938 before they could say '33 was the worst of it.

With nothing at all scientific to base it on maybe 20 years from today?
I don't think you'll ever be able to say "today is the day the SHTF" in an overall sense. On a personal level it will be the day we loose our job, actually the most common SHTF event for all of us. I've been expecting that day for a couple of years but the bank hasn't said my paycheck is NSF yet.
It will just regularly get a bit worse and one day it will begin to improve and years later you might be able to say "20xx was the worst".
In the depression it was probably 1938 before they could say '33 was the worst of it.

Thank you. You raise a good point that SHTF could also be on a more personal level rather then a global one.

I find it interesting the comment on the depression. I had not considered looking to the past to see how long it took different countries to recover from their events.

I find it annoying that every talk turns to having to defend your home or garden from bands of marauding looters. Historically there is almost nothing to support this view.
How many true natural disasters in your lifetime have forced you to bug out? For the overwhelming majority it will be none.
Making do for a few days till things recover? Twice?

On the other hand almost every one of us will face a job loss once or more during our lives. That is the most likely event any of us will face and a damn good reason in itself to stock up on things so you have reserves and it doesn't become a disaster for you personally.
It's cool to know how to make soap but I really find it hard to believe that there will come a time when it's impossible to buy or trade for soap and you'll have to make it.

Certainly don't discount the possibility of a major event but don't assume you be barricading yourself in your bunker as a matter of course.
If you are what you eat then your mind is also what you feed it. Get off the junk food.

I find it annoying that every talk turns to having to defend your home or garden from bands of marauding looters. Historically there is almost nothing to support this view.
How many true natural disasters in your lifetime have forced you to bug out? For the overwhelming majority it will be none.
Making do for a few days till things recover? Twice?

On the other hand almost every one of us will face a job loss once or more during our lives. That is the most likely event any of us will face and a damn good reason in itself to stock up on things so you have reserves and it doesn't become a disaster for you personally.
It's cool to know how to make soap but I really find it hard to believe that there will come a time when it's impossible to buy or trade for soap and you'll have to make it.

Certainly don't discount the possibility of a major event but don't assume you be barricading yourself in your bunker as a matter of course.
If you are what you eat then your mind is also what you feed it. Get off the junk food.

Well said. You're always so logical and comforting. Sometimes I am filled with such an overwhelming sense of urgency that I almost want to give up, if that makes sense. My daughter has nicknamed me "Preparanoia"

I'm no different than anyone else. In the beginning you start learning about all the stuff that CAN go wrong and you think we're about to go off a cliff. After a few years and the sun hasn't fried us you start to look at more probable things.
There's no point in working yourself in to a state of panic. We're going to face some tougher times in the coming years but it's not going to be tomorrow.

I didn't do it, I know where you're at...I'm there myself quite a lot. That's part of the reason why I went looking for info to give me something positive to do and to take my mind of my worries (and just look what I found - a goldmine of information and lots of wonderful people with such great advice and skills). I'm a fighter and I want to survive whatever comes my way (with those closest to me) and that's why I prep and learn as much as I can. Hang in there!

I hope for our sake and our childrens sake things dont return to normal. If shtf I hope we take the opurtunity to evolve in our way of thinking and how we exist. We need to realize there is no need for any of what we have now. Economy, money and employment are words we dont need, nor do we need to continue this existance. There will never be peace and prosparity for all as long as our society is constrained by thease words and what the stand for.

Professer i understand you logical thinking but I think what you need to understand is that the world is on the verge of economic collapse period. we are not in the 30s or 50s we are here now and there is nothing much we can do to stop it. Every society since the begining of man has failed and this one will to. i think we are looking at the end, an inevitable world wide bankrupsy. I think you need to know how the system works and why it was put into place. we live in a modern age of slavery, we are slaves to the economy to the banks and corperation and most importantly the government.

when the government had a chance to really help the economy they decided to help the corperations. did you know that if the government gave the bail out that they gave the banks insurance companys and car manufactures to the people, every one over the age of 18 would have recieved 1.2 million. instesad they took it from us or will take it from us via taxes and gave it to the people who forclose on our homes, wont cover our medical expences. thease companies then went and laid of tens of thousands in the name of profit. the only ones looking out for us is us and we are doing a shitty job!

Much agreed. Everything you said, I feel strongly about. We don't need to be this way and we'll be better off if we don't rebuild to this lifestyle. It's soooooo incredibly easy to live self-sustainable. It is easy now to acquire the materials and tools to pursue such a lifestyle, on a small, personal scale. I understand it takes great minds and factories to manufacture the batteries and windmills and so-on, that we have now....but even later, all the plants can be rebuilt to be efficient and "free". No the materials to make our things aren't free, but if the goal was to make as few as possible and conserve resources, our products would actually be made durable and of higher quality. They wouldn't be designed to fall apart in a year because no body would be out there trying to make PROFIT off it!

Of course every empire has declined and failed, it's the system itself that is flawed, and the system that fails. My point was that the people didn't turn on each other and turn it into Mad Max.
In Greece for instance, people can't afford much of the food in the supermarket and they're going hungry. They aren't going out to country to raid farms, they're going to buy food from the farmer himself with money or offering labor in exchange.
Guess what? Food costs 1/3 as much and the farmer gets more than he would have from the middlemen (system leaches).
They aren't gathering as armed bands to kill and steal. They are gathering as armed bands against those they're angry with, the government. The System.
Look everywhere, Syria, Egypt, Tunisia. How does the violence play out? Or rather against who?

I'm perfectly aware of our impending financial crisis. That implies money or some form of currency to exchange for goods is going to be worth less, or maybe worthless. But really, you don't NEED money. Only the stuff you buy with it. The 5 survival needs- food, water, energy, shelter, security.
And what "goods" are the most important? As I've said. You have to eat 3x every day.
If you can produce your own food, water, energy and shelter, just how much money do you NEED? Money is for luxuries if you have your needs covered. Pretty hard to cover all your needs so maybe you grow extra food and trade that. Or know how to build shelters or fix things and trade that. 100 years ago this was very common.
At the very least, find the producers in your area and develop a relationship NOW, before you're just another face.

That paragraph above is my "prepping philosophy". Not asteroids or aliens or SHTF or FEMA camps or nuclear war or any of that crap. I know they're possible but ya gotta eat first.

On the other side of this mess there will another revolution in manufacturing and lifestyle. Many new opportunities, products and services. Once here we won't go back to the stone age. We have all these comforts and we'll find a way to make many of them work in a sustainable manner without raping the earth.

Way to go oldschool, you've done it again. You always come up with such great topics to get us thinking and helping each other. It's good to share info on technical matters such as plumbing, or gardening, etc., but I think it's crucial to know that we have emotional support as well.