I will just skip your you tube vids Knuckle. I am sure they are good and all, just as I am sure prom's are all good to. Instead I will just suggest that the missile system was composed of 3 maybe four separate systems, one maybe two mobile radar tracking systems, at least one mobile launch platform, and all coordinated by a mobile command center, all likely operating within a 15 to 20 km radius of each other. lots of EM being emitted between the mobile ground systems, with significant EM emisions being transmited directly at the target aircraft. Now with that said, I don't believe There is not so much as a single cell phone call made in this world that is not recorded by the Empire let alone the very key strokes I am making now.............

So with that said, Instantly claims were made that Russia or Russian seperatists shot down this air craft. In what must be 9 months or so not one sat pic has been given, not one record of the radar freq has been provided, not one launch command order has been played back, not one IR signature of the missle launch has been given confirming the lat and long of its launch location. I know every bit of this was recorded....(if it was taken down by a missile)

Now without the benefit of youtube, tv or any other influencing media, and without any agenda other than what common sense leads me too... I conclude Russia or the sepratist Likely did not shoot down that aircraft, as it would have been in the interest of the empire to provide such info. Just as they did when a Russian mig shot down a airliner in the 80's, Korean if I remember right, and the orders to fire from ground control to the aircraft were given, and played back by the American's after Russia first denied shooting it down.
It would not matter to me one wit if they now provided such info as I would conclude it just took this long to fabricate such info.

The US now has the largest population of prisoners in the world, dwarfing the USSR Stalin gulag system. A nation that Tortures prisoner's to death as a matter of policy while denying its so. A nation where freedom of assembly, and association is a abstract concept, never to be practiced again, where freedom of speech and due process of law is a function of if you can afford it. A state security/legal system designed to punitively crush, punish, impoverish, and imprison those who call out, challenge, expose, or otherwise draw attention to its metastised condition, while protecting,and conceiling the military, financial, corporate, and governing elites from accountability. Not one claim made by such a system would I believe anymore than I would believe a claim made by North Korea that did not have factual evidence accompany it. I am betting there must be a lot of negotiations going on, with lots of US pressure to have a conclusion reached that's inconclusive and likely contrary to the physical evidence being examined, as to who was directly responsible, thus enabling the US to continue with its narrative unchallenged.

I am stunned by one thing and one thing only in reading this thread, and that is someone who claims to be able to recognise propaganda, who claims to have been brought up in it, and able to recognise it better than anyone else would actualy use the repetition of a statement as proof of its truth!

{different sources but I could have posted 100s of links about it. It was all over the news, from Asia to latin america and they all were saying the same thing.}

When the same thing is being repeated over and over, you might want to pause and question a few things, that just might be a clue they are reading from the same script.The biggest lies are the ones repeated most, and often the loudest. I suggest physical evidence, and/or its lack of, just might lead nearer to the truth than what is just repeated over and over. WMD anyone?
My apologies in advance for the lack of youtube support for my opinion, in its place I give you a unrelated vid to watch, while not relevant to the topic of this thread interesting none the less. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqgfjXaJxV8

So that's all that you got against that piece of evidence? Sorry but you have to do better. See, when you post something on the internet, the longer it's there the bigger the chance you won't be able to remove it from the internet even if you delete your post. And that's for a couple of reasons. One is, if I monitor your posts and I see something interesting I can take a screenshot and repost it. Another one is web caching, like Google cache or Internet Archive’s Wayback Machine . Even though they deleted the post after they realized what they have done, you can still see it here:
http://vk.com/strelkov_inf o"> http://web.archive.org/web/20140717152222/http://vk.com/strelkov_info

I said this before, that account was used by the separatists as their news agency. The account was monitored by news agency from all over the world. Too many people saw it to claim it's western conspiracy.

Russian media including ITAR-TASS reported on the same story from their own separatist source. The ITAR TASS page is still on:
http://tass.ru/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1325017
Just right click and use translate with bing if you open it with internet explorer.

The reason I said <<It was all over the news, from Asia to latin america and they all were saying the same thing.> was to reply to Odin Grey's suggestion that I should get my sources from other regions of the globe and not use western media. If it would have been repeated only on the western media then you could claim conspiracy and propaganda but it was repeated also in non-Western media , like alJazeera ( I posted the link in this very thread , on the first page) or russian media ( see above).

I see from your post that you suffer from the same conspiracy theory induced tunnel vision just like knuckle, jensen, odin grey and others. You guys keep on asking about satellite images. Don't you contradict yourself when you demand this kind of evidence from a government you distrust so much? What if there was such evidence, would you really have believed it? I'm sure you wouldn't. And looking at the satellite images from the russian army, do you have the expertise to actually get something from the images? I don't think so. I don't for sure. On the other hand you completely ignored some simple to understand facts and didn't even bother to do some research. And that's just because you it's not something you want to believe. And you call me a sheep?

I see from your post that you suffer from the same conspiracy theory induced tunnel vision just like knuckle, jensen, odin grey and others. You guys keep on asking about satellite images. Don't you contradict yourself when you demand this kind of evidence from a government you distrust so much? What if there was such evidence, would you really have believed it? I'm sure you wouldn't. And looking at the satellite images from the russian army, do you have the expertise to actually get something from the images? I don't think so. I don't for sure. On the other hand you completely ignored some simple to understand facts and didn't even bother to do some research. And that's just because you it's not something you want to believe. And you call me a sheep?

Well first I have to correct you...I haven't called you a sheep, I am pretty sure I have never implied it either, you must have me confused with another.

2nd I don't know if Knuckle, Oldin, Jensen, and the others you refer to suffer from conspiracy theory induced tunnel vision, I do know they, like myself propose thoughts different than yours. I will speak to my own thoughts on the mater and say my questioning of the conclusion you have rushed to does not have anything to do with a "conspiracy" in fact my questioning relates specifically to the facts, or more correctly the lack of, and to whos benefit that would be.

3rd I do remember some many posts back in time Somewhere Knuckle posted a sat pic provided by Russia showing the shooting down of the jet by a Ukraine fighter and I called that out as BS at the time, Unlike you I do not take anything at face value on this mater, and question everything from each and every side and angle

4th your comment "its something you want to believe" could not be more out to lunch. I am evidence driven, looking for facts to reach a conclusion in this or any mater, and failing facts, will weigh and consider probabilities, motives, and other actions to lead to likely probabilities.

You clearly are the one "wanting to believe something" I suggest to you that Jumping jacks are good...jumping to conclusions not so good.

I will look at your links later, but suspect they will carry little weight should I find them credible I will return to say so.

Prom...I was just checking dates and times, and based on when you started this thread with your conclusion as the title, I suspect you posted within a couple hours of this event..... I quess I should edit my previous post so that it doesn't imply that you Jumped to conclusions. Clearly your not someone who would do that 🙄
and to think there is still no conclusive (or maybe we should say agreed to story) report out on this matter, They should have just let you write the report 😀 and this could have been wrapped up the day (maybe hour) it happened.

Looked at one of your links....Right some person or group says something, takes credit for something on the internet and we all should just believe that, cause no one lies.....hey didn't Isis claim they shot down that Turkish plane in Syria, It was on the net so it must be true, isnt that right Prom? Shot it down with their non existent missile systems 🙄 Hey Prom you can find clips of George Dumya Bush Saying the "the united States does not torture prisoners " I quess that must be true it was on the internet!! Sorry I am just not wasting my time further, you really have to do better

And just to be clear, as I said I am evidence driven, I actually do have a strong argument for it being the Russian rebels that brought it down, but since this happened and up to this point in time, the key info I would want before changing my thoughts just hasn't been presented, and its absence invites more questions in my mind.

If time proves you right, you will be right only cause a blind dog finds a bone once in a while. Like guessing the correct answer on a math test but being unable to show your work.

Prom if I am a conspiracy theorist for not jumping on your band wagon and screaming "murder" when you do and by disagreeing with you when you do so, I guess by your standard I am a "conspiracy theorist`.

But why a conspiracy theorist for wanting to have real proof (such as black box recording etc) and for analyzing what info is available and for taking time to reflect upon objectives gained by downing the flight, discussing the possibility of an accidental downing of the flight etc. My understanding was that a conspiracy theorist would be someone who would postulate crazy things and the reasons therefore. Such as CIA killed Kennedy as he refused to enter Vietnam, aliens are abducting my neighbours and now they are spying on me, my Frosties are making me loose my hair and its part of Kellogs plan to launch a new hair generating shampoo for children and teenagers (I do not think any of these are true...) etc. I think that is the general perception of a conspiracy theorist.

So Lets get real here. Calling me a conspiracy theorist for not agreeing with you is hardly going to make me into a conspiracy theorist as much as any evidence in the world will not convince you that Novarussians did not shoot down that flight.

Prom, its not like you to be so quiet on your favorite topic. I understand you have a lot of anger for the Russians, that comes through pretty clear. I have anger for claims made without supporting data. Well not anger as such just frustration with, and on all topics not just this one.
Lets not give any side in this or anything a pass....lets make each side present evidence, real evidence,physical evidence, and lets not even believe their conclusions from that evidence, unless we reason through it to reach a conclusion of our own. I am not going to respond to a dog whistle and I don't think you should either, even if we at first like the tone.

Jensen, I hadn't put it together before but I eat Frosties and am losing my hair. Now I understand

Prom, its not like you to be so quiet on your favorite topic. I understand you have a lot of anger for the Russians, that comes through pretty clear. I have anger for claims made without supporting data. Well not anger as such just frustration with, and on all topics not just this one.
Lets not give any side in this or anything a pass....lets make each side present evidence, real evidence,physical evidence, and lets not even believe their conclusions from that evidence, unless we reason through it to reach a conclusion of our own. I am not going to respond to a dog whistle and I don't think you should either, even if we at first like the tone.

Jensen, I hadn't put it together before but I eat Frosties and am losing my hair. Now I understand

Although I do fear russian imperialism I don't have anger against Russians. I hope you'll understand the difference. I treat people as individuals and not by their nationality, religion etc.
Yes, I was going to respond sooner but I had more important stuff to do last week. I will get back to you as soon as possible. I don't like to just throw stuff here so it takes me a lot of time to reply.

Sorry I am just not wasting my time further, you really have to do better

This statement is confusing. If you don't to waste your time why did you post again here?

Later

Sorry I am just not wasting my time further, you really have to do better

This statement is confusing. If you don't to waste your time why did you post again here?

Later

You took that out of context, I was referring to your links. In fact how about going forward we just don't use any links or you tube vids? Because lets face it I am sure there is a endless stream of them...for both and every side.

[In fact how about going forward we just don't use any links or you tube vids? Because lets face it I am sure there is a endless stream of them...for both and every side.

What do you propose to use instead? You don't trust internet, TV and I suppose printed press goes in the same bucket?

Before I go any further we need to settle this issue. And here is why. I was going to reply to your accusation that I posted in a very small time frame (couple of hours) from the event and I was going to start with the actual time the event happened. Now, how am I supposed to do that without an internet link? Should we wait till somebody writes a book about it and reference it?

BTW, I don't remeber ever posting an youtube link

by peppercorn »Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:21 pm

I conclude Russia or the sepratist Likely did not shoot down that aircraft,

by peppercorn » Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:58 am

And just to be clear, as I said I am evidence driven, I actually do have a strong argument for it being the Russian rebels that brought it down,

Is it just me or are these 2 conflicting statements made in less than 36 hrs ? Maybe I took it out of context again 😕

Prom, Conflicting statements, not really. As I said I am evidence driven (or the lack of) in what steers my ship so to speak. Unlike you my conclusion is not reached before hand. I say with the context of the info I have to date that the rebels or Russians did not likely shoot down the plane, as without a dout if it was so the US could have instantly identified the exact launch site, the position of the tracking radar, and likely the location of the command vehicle.
There has been nothing but silence on this...Such info along with the current ground positions at the time of the incident of the different sides would in my opinion be important info to have and one would think it would have been provided pro forma in this regard. Its absence bothers you not the least?

Now with that info, I may be looking at a stronger argument for it being Russia or the rebels depending how that info if provided plays out, You may think my statements are conficting, I say I have not carved anything in stone, and will consider everything.

Your statement "Although I do fear russian imperialism I don't have anger against Russians" is questionable at best, for the sake of argument I will just say fine, ok, but your reactions to anything Russian that I have read does appear to be knee jerk at best.

I do have to say regarding Russian imperialism, what are you talking about? what imperialism? that fell flat with the collapse of communism. Do your own assessment of current conventional capabitities. They haven't the capacity to project and sustain past, only at best, the countries on thier own borders, and even at that, they will be stretched. Should they fight against Nato/US conventionaly outside their own borders,they face dim prospects, You cant have imperialist ambitions unless you can hold your gains..with force.

Prom, I am not trying to convince you of who shot down what, I have more questions than answers. I throw out a narrative different than the one you hold for thought. something to chew on, or to spit out. If you are happy with how you came to your conclusion then good for you.