My in-laws are currently visiting, time is so short at the moment but I do a mix of hay, fodder grains, and fodder feeds, on small amount of land, its just as important to grow and store squashes, beets, carrots and turnips as critter feed as hay is.. even sunflowers etc can be grown and used as fodder, the studies all done somewhere in the past hundred years by the government, just need to track them down..

Many Many fodder critter feeds are not as timely as hay can be, and are easily to both start feeding early if needed and save a lot of the hay till later use or stretch it out etc.

My in-laws are currently visiting, time is so short at the moment but I do a mix of hay, fodder grains, and fodder feeds, on small amount of land, its just as important to grow and store squashes, beets, carrots and turnips as critter feed as hay is.. even sunflowers etc can be grown and used as fodder, the studies all done somewhere in the past hundred years by the government, just need to track them down..

Many Many fodder critter feeds are not as timely as hay can be, and are easily to both start feeding early if needed and save a lot of the hay till later use or stretch it out etc.

Good stuff. I don't think of those foods for ruminants. I was actually thinking of avoiding getting ruminants in favour of pigs because I knew it would be easier on a small scale to grow and store gourds. I actually still have 10 squashes remaining from last summers harvest that have survived. That and drieds apple. Funny how it takes someone else saying it to have that hallelujah moment of understanding. Duh. It should have been obvious that goats or donkeys would eat carrots and pumpkins. Thanks. Way more energy efficient with limited tools. If you don't have a sickle mower....their is always a shovel ....or pointy stick. 😳

it would not have come as easily to me but I have a Scottish uncle, and was raised on story's of how his family loved to tease my aunt for eating cow/sheep food, in the forms of beets, turnips, cabbage and carrots.

can the animals get bloat or founder from that?

Now, that's a great question...for farmgal, ha. I had an urban goat with my first x wife about the time the Berlin Wall came down. The Soviet Union, the marriage and the goat all died about the same time...from Bloat. Turns out back yards clover is not good for goats, invading Afghanistan is not good for empires and you shouldn't get married in your early Twenties to someone that works in the film industry...which leads into a story I wont tell about being held back from punching out Johnny Depp...He was only a minor celebrity back then....

So, Back to bloat. Anyone got any advice on not slowly, painfully killing your animals...empires or ...X wives. Tehehehe. Well, lets stick with the animals.

I don't know much about veg bloat but I would think that controlling intake would be pretty easy.

I do know about red clover bloat. What I do is - on the day that I want to let my ruminants out into fresh graze, I feed them a little extra feed and a lot of free choice hay and then turn them into the field just before dark. The idea is two-fold - they will be full of their usual diet so they cannot stuff themselves too much and by turning them out at dusk, they will graze with gusto for a bit and then go lay down for the night. In the morning they will graze normally and then lie down and ruminate as required.

The ol' timers did it this way and it seems to work. I do keep a bottle of Bloat-Eze on hand but I have only had to use it when a stupid ewe ate half a bag of ewe pellets.

quick reply,

I have never allowed them to overfeed, and therefor have never had issues with bloat, anytime I introduce new foods, I follow the standard process of adding it a little at a time, one of the biggest reason's that most folks here would choose not to use these kinds of feeds is that it requires chopping of them into safe smaller pieces.

Ha, didn't think you could kill a goat... at least not in any of the normal ways... thought they were like zombies...

Nope, goats are very easy to kill, wrong feed, mold in hay, hay quality not good enough, etc etc, now sheep health wise they are harder to kill I find,

ok, getting back to bloat an new foods, and hay for a minutes,

First, you should always have dry clean and free feed baking soda out, this helps a lot with any possible bloat issues, the sheep, goats and even the cow etc, will all self-treat if given the ability to do so..

Its always cute to see them come lick it, get this funny look on their face and the burp and blech it up, kinda smile at you and walk away..

But back to the hay, first thing, I would like to talk about is that has not been touched on is that you should ideally be seeding your haying pastures to match what you want to raise for livestock, yes there is crossover but unless you have all the equipment, you should ideally be frost seeding in the spring. But the second thing to be able to do now, is test your soil and test your hay, find out now what is missing and work to rebuild the land.

Far to often I see folks who go natural, who don't understand that what your soil is missing, your feed is missing, which means your animals are missing it, and their poop, no matter how much you use is still going to be missing it.. this is NOT a hard and fast rule, there are flex in a many ways on this but not as much as lots of folks like to think. I have watch folks buy healthy animals have tons of pasture/hay and because they are unaware or ? that they need to supplement x or y or z because we live in zone T that is missing x or y or z

Often the local feed stores will add in missing things and that is good but lots of folks now buy only feed that is pure but don't give proper though to how that will have long term effects on their livestock, the same needs to be looked at in regards to hay, yes of course when it was cut, the temps and the moisture content and storage are all going to play a part here but what is being grown and what the soil is lacking will also show up in your hay.

Now you can go buy loose mineral or like me, you can buy a protein, mineral/vit/fat lick for the critters but what about afterwards or if you could not afford those things, its a very good idea to take the time to learn about your land, and the land around you and develop a plan to build the soil and the hay pastures, can you plant small different area's with different hay mixtures, and therefor have different hays to offer for use on the farm?

http://livingmydreamlifeonthefarm.wordpress.com/2012/03/15/march-challange-frost-seeding/

“Frost seeding is an economical method of improving pasture and hay fields by broadcasting the seed on frozen ground. As the ground freezes and thaws, it opens and closes allowing the seed to be incorporated into the soil. This keeps the seed from germinating until there is a good moisture supply early in the spring. Legumes are the most successful for this system as they tend to be rounded, dense and most importantly, they -germinate at lower temperatures so will begin growth early in the spring. Grasses have not been as successful as they are lighter coloured, less dense thus they sit on top of the ground and wait for warmer temperatures to begin growth. This often coincides with drier weather as well.

The ideal candidate for frost seeding is a pasture field that is “run out”. If you walk across the field and can see bare soil the size of a loonie, then these spots will be good frost seeding sites. A field can be made ready for frost seeding by overgrazing in the fall to weaken the existing plant growth in the spring. This is not necessary but can be helpful in allowing the seeds to make good soil contact.

The addition of legumes to a pasture or hayfield benefits the forage in many ways. The legume is higher in protein and energy at all stages of growth than the existing grasses, so the addition improves the quality of the forage. Legumes are also able to “fix nitrogen” from the air. As their roots rot back naturally they “share” this nitrogen with the surrounding grasses. Nutrient requirements of a legume grass stand are much lower than for a pure grass stand because of this “free” nitrogen.

As we work pasture fields harder, using rotational grazing to keep them vegetative, we are finding that legumes such as trefoil are not Iong lived perennials but rather live 3 – 4 years and reseed easily. If we do not allow them to go to seed, they will thin out of the pasture. It is more economical to frost seed every 3 – 4 years than to set aside a portion of the pasture to allow it to go to seed unless land costs are extremely low. Frost seeding can help to limit the density of legumes such as clovers if they are frost seeded rather than seeded with the original mix. This along with good grazing management will help with bloat control.

Alfalfa will frost seed as well as any other legume, but alfalfa has an autotoxicity which will not allow new alfalfa seed to grow in the presence of a mature alfalfa plant. You will only have one chance to get a successful stand if you are frost seeding into a pure grass stand. For this reason, alfalfa is usually seeded conventionally or no-tilled to produce more consistent results.

You have the choices of conventional reseeding no-tilling, fertilizing or frost seeding forage fields to improve their production. Your goals for the field and the condition of the stand will determine which is best. In hay fields, we generally want an alfalfa grass stand so conventional reseeding or no-tilling, after killing the original stand, are the most effective. Alfalfa stands can be patched by frost seeding red clover into the stand to get one more production year, but this is usually done in the spring when winterkill reduces hay supplies. Fertilizing, can double or triple the production from an existing stand, but keep in mind that it could also do this with a more productive species that you have introduced. If you have an adequate grass stand in a pasture field, then adding a legume by frost seeding will not only add a high quality plant to the stand but will also help to provide nitrogen to the grasses, improving their growth as well.

Frost seeding requires very little equipment. It is often done using an all terrain vehicle (ATV), snowmobile, tractor and spreader or with a hand-held broadcaster. Many custom operators provide these services. Cost per acre is low. This makes it a very attractive alternative for someone who wants to improve a pasture with very low input costs. It also has the added advantage that the pasture will be useable the summer following as there is no need to remove the livestock completely.

The ideal time to frost seed is in the very early spring. The ground should freeze and thaw 2 – 3 times after the seed is broadcast. Another good time is December, after all the growth has stopped for the year. This is an excellent time for areas which normally receive good snow cover and do not experience prolonged January thaws when the seeds could germinate. Too many times fields go from snowbanks to mud in the spring so there is no time to frost seed. Do consider December seeding,. A light skiff of snow will help to show where you have seeded. Tractors with a spinner spreader can often be used at this time, making the job faster and a smoother ride.

Bird’s foot trefoil is Generally used for frost seeding as it is a non-bloating legume that established relatively well. A seeding rate of 5 kg/ha is adequate. The clovers are more aggressive in establishment but do introduce a bloat concern. If you manage your grasses to keep them young and vegetative, this can be reduced. Seeding rates of 1-2 kg/ha are adequate for clovers as they have many seeds per kilogram. There has been some success with perennial ryegrass and orchardgrass but this should be considered more as a last resort. Legumes are about 50-60% effective in establishment and grasses about 20-30% effective when frost seeded. This really means one year of excellent catches, one year of no results, and two years somewhere in between. You will need patience and perseverance when frost seeding. The cost is 25-30% of conventional or no-till seeding so you can afford to frost seed 2 – 3 times to get an acceptable stand. If you do not find this wait acceptable, then you should consider other alternatives. Weather in the spring will determine how successful the frost seeding will be.

Phosphorus does favour new seedling but in a frost seeding situation, where there is so much existing, competition, fertilizing the field will give the advantage to the existing plants. A late summer application of phosphorus and potash would strengthen the root systems of the legumes for the winter.

An early summer grazing can help reduce the competition from existing grasses. If a rotational system is being used, limit the time that the livestock have access to the frost seeded area. Often, in continuous -grazing situations, livestock have overgrazed the area and killed the legume. Watch their habits to see if this is the problem and try to alter their behavior. A minimum of four paddocks will help you to control grazing patterns, which will allow rebuilding of root reserves between grazing periods. The legumes can then establish and be more productive.

Frost seeding is a popular method of improving long term pastures or patching hayfields for one more year of production. It is a cheap but high risk option. Many people will frost seed 25% of their acreage each year so that they are spreading their risk over different years. It takes about two years to see the improvements from trefoil applications so these should be made a year before the existing plants die out. This will continuously maintain a good pasture rather than allowing it to lower its production. Frost seeding is one of the most economical and easy improvements that can be made to a pasture.

Original written by Harry Harricharan and Joan McKinlay.”

http://livingmydreamlifeonthefarm.wordpress.com/2011/08/04/the-pay-off-to-pasture-improvement/

Great post farmgal. I had never heard about the baking soda (but I do frost seed triple mix red clover-alsike-timothy every year).

A few questions: do you just use the regular boxes of baking soda from the grocery store or is there a 25kg feed store version?

How much per head do you put out as a rule?

Do you make it available to the animals all year round?

Well, Im just coming in from raking doodles...or should I say Im now rolling doodles. Goddess, that sounds funny like smokeable LSD covered macaroni or some other Dr Zeuss, down on his luck, muggings.

Nope. It means I figured out what farmgal meant about rolling the hay. The best way I can translate it to you is if you roll a snowball...it will eventually become a snowman. Same happens with the hay if you rake it in the right direction. It begins to roll up like a bear skin rug. Once I started raking it like this, it greatly increased the amount accomplished. Say 4 times more raked up into piles with the same effort... or I suppose it could then be tied up and carried.

yup, if you roll it right, its amazing how fast you can get at it, there is a clear method, learning to tie them is good practise, they half to be tied just so, so you can either stand them in bundles of sive for pickup in what ever form you choose, also for placing in storage and moving to feed, if you can, roll, tie of at get a hanging butcher scale, should have one anyway to track live weight hangs vs dressed etc and hang the hay just a bit off the ground and you can start to get averages in your minds eye on what your rolls come in at, and then you know how many pounds of hay to feed per pounds of livestock, and you have a much better idea of what is needed.

Great post farmgal. I had never heard about the baking soda (but I do frost seed triple mix red clover-alsike-timothy every year).

A few questions: do you just use the regular boxes of baking soda from the grocery store or is there a 25kg feed store version?

How much per head do you put out as a rule?

Do you make it available to the animals all year round?

My feed store carries it in 55 pd bags for around 14 dollars, I use it for the livestock, as a cleaner and also will sprickle and the sweep with it in livestock areas

can't answer the second, I have a pan, winter is slow, spring heavy, summer and fall steady in use, I go though 4 bags per year but as said I use for a lot more then just this

yes, all year long..

I have no special equipment other than the cutter and a utility trailer to move the hay, pulled behind the car last year and truck this year. Very funny looking but, hay, That's improvisational survivalism. l