I'm starting to wonder if you should try and join up with the Amish for your village at that piece of property.
Henry ...Just read again my initial heading ...same then as now.
A more viable, intentionally prepared community, not a new society....The rest is up to society. Pioneering aspects, not out of policy or preference, but because it's all that the majority can afford, and simplicity is appealing , and usually more sustainable.
I never said that i do no prepping as you and many may define that, but that my "prepping" is mainly concerned, primarily, in terms of newly-formed , creative community interaction : that that is the most relevant preparation, in my opinion.
That does not exclude whatever physical preparations we can afford, and have time for concurrently...but some would be a waste of time, in place, when we would have to duplicate them in a new space...hopefully in time.
So, if you still equate this effort with dreaming, and dishonesty?, that's your inaccurate burden, not mine.
You're not me, i'm not you, but we should be brothers/keepers.
Just because you have had a disappointing experience in a past attempt to host a few people on your land, it's no reason to assume that i or anyone else must have a similar experience.
In fact, in my lifetime, i have had several such opposite opportunities over many years. That's the basis of my trust in another creative alternative, unmotivated by fear of catastrophe, or limited vision of what's possible....and calling that "reality".
If i could offer some advice also,...why not put your energy into hosting a workshop at your place where you can show/teach what you have experienced/learned over the years about what you call prepping.?
g'nite....
I think that Henry has the mindset that you haven't even gotten started and the countdown is running out...
I too admire your determination to make this village a reality. Had I the intent to join you, I would have likely bailed out by now as it is indeed seems to be that sits on the burner but never gets cooked! Seems some folks get together and analyze and talk forever and can't even figure where to put the barn while others work together and just throw up a nice barn in a weekend!
I know there is alot of factors to consider in such a venture but the two years would make me wonder why how this thing could ever work. Either you get together and build this close knit community where one shares the well and septic field to save money. Otherwise, I'd consider this just a housing development project and forget about the prepper neighbours as they would be too far away to help anyways.
I think the approach where folks buy the land first and sell parcels is the only workable solution to such a concept. In this way, they each get to know in advance who their neighbors are and what the situation offers. The major problem is that many don't have the extra funds required to take this step as even employment and other conditions limit them further.
A Fallback Plan
Seems that my concept of city folks then paying for a prepaid fallback location keeps coming back when discussing this subject. As funds are not something the majority of us have in quantity, concessions could be maybe made for those younger and who still have a strong back. Those better off today usually have some years of saving behind them but then not the youth to start over. And a small community needs all ages to flourish. You'd think that a compromise could be found for such an endevour but we humans will always find a reason to distrust another and this reason alone is why such is unlikely to happen.
I mentioned tourist camps are already set up to provide most of the basic comforts to provide such a retreat. Small camps sleep 30 people while larger ones sleep up to around 80. All have electricity from either power lines or generator. Most cabins have indoor plumbing but are not set up for winter use. All are surrounded by forest and have game and fishing.
The trick is to sell the concept to a camp owner that if SHTF, folks might flock to a camp they once stayed at and then take control of it with their buddies. So why not sell a package to specific folks they figure are safe and surround themselves with friends instead? In this way they get to keep their camp and have a place to live and can sleep peacefully while being watched over.
These camps wouldn't provide an easy life but still far better than that which a country in chaos could offer elsewhere. Preppers could then know they have a decent fallback. Younger folk could make deals to start with free labour while their family learns bush skills. The trick is to be willing to come during slow times so the camp doesn't lose money while you stay there for free. And the owner has to see something to gain...if he doesn't, he'd lose interest in you after your 1st visit. In other words, this wouldn't be a holiday but more of a job!
This same concept could work for farmers too but with other such variations to suit them also. They too would need protection during chaotic times. It's just proving to them that you won't kill them in turn while they sleep is the main problem.
Hey villager , sorry you got so offended but I do not beat around bush. I thought after trying fol so long you would realize it is not working and try different
strategy and approach. As you see it is not just my opinion.
Now to answer your question:
You really think I would invite strangers I never met to my place to show them where I live and what I have?? WOW.
Secondly I did not try to have meeting on my property but neutral place , and we HAD nice meeting but I was meeting preppers from North . Tried to get together
prep[pers from Muskoka. Now we have nice little club of close by preppers that we meet quite often and since we got to know each other we visit each others.
Quite often now we meet at COSTCO where women go shopping and guys go for a walk at CABELAS . That really works for us.
Good luck.
Henry
Knuckle, I still like your tourist camp turned SHTF camp..
It would give time to get the tourist camp winterized and wood stoves installed.
The location of that tourist camp might be an issue. I read somewhere recently that some areas, would be swamped with people from the
big cities looking to get out of city with their BOB and BOV to where there is country and water and assuming those cottage countries
are a good place.
There's nothing said yet here that we in the project haven't considered fairly deeply or experienced individually in past ventures.
I'm no longer surprised at critical comments by folks (with no skin in this game), drawing conclusions with no basis except their own assumptions out of context.
The measure of time is used as a criterion for judgement...as if there was more than a clue about all the factors involved.
I've said i'm in for the long haul,..or until circumstances beyond my control decide otherwise....and even then ?
I've been involved in team barnbuilding and other projects ....know what a thrill it is when there is a posture of non-judgement and willingness to complement the process. esprit de corps.
One thing for sure, is that the harmonious flow can turn bitter and jerky the moment non-observant nit-picking starts in various corners, and almost always somebody gets hurt as a result.
That's why it's advisable to cover all the focus bases of agreement of procedure. This does take time...especially when corresponding with folks not in close proximity. That's all relative to conditions. How large is your active circle?
Anyway, i'm not trying to convince anyone who is expressly doubtful or unlikeminded, but continue to seek those with resonance of agreement in the possibilities i've outlined. For the rest, i do hear some valid points, but again, much out of context.
Try a barn-building approach for your own plan, if you cannot bear to facilitate someone else's plan or postulation.
The key social challenge remains : a collective unit experience of aspiring resilient individuals in a sufficiently large space where they can freely and happily practise and hone all their skills in the context of interdependent dynamics....beyond the nuclear family... not motivated by any particular religious bent nor material conviction, but open to discover what kind of possibilities this experience further enables.
At the very least, it would be quite well-prepared for any situation, "all things being equal".
Try this out in your own circles of likemindedness. Its limits will always be tested. If everyone so moved, persisted in this, there would eventually be an increasing commonality of values with inherent strength, and at the same time a polarizing faction.
later,...villager
henry I totally understand where you are coming from. I also follow this thread and sometimes think this will never take off. However I don't have the impression that this is the end all of villager"s prepping. I think this is an idea he shares with another group of likeminded people and that they are working towards doing financing and land permitted. So far it seems that when the land is available they don't have enough funds available and this is the reason why he keeps posting and inviting people to this idea. Will it ever take off ?. I have no idea.
However I think that 2 years work on a project of this scale is probably not totally unrealistic considering he is selling the idea to a group of strangers and is maintaining the dream over a long period of time. I think comparing this project with your own prepping (or homesteading, living in a remote area whatever we call it. Its all words and labels at the end of the day) you are being unfair and unrealistic in your expectations to what he is doing. Of course you can comment but at least you should compare your situations and understand where he comes from. I am guessing you grew up somewhere in Eastern Europe or the Balkans and villager is probably from Toronto or close by somewhere very urban. You probably grew up living somewhat self sustaining and he grew up taking doing grocery shopping in a Supermarket. I could carry on but I hope you understand the differences between you both. He is now living a life working in Toronto which kind of ties him down otherwise he would probably have pursued the dream of living closer to nature up North earlier. You on the other hand decided earlier on that you wanted to live closer to the old country and have made choices to pursue work allowing you to live that life. Those are the circumstances we are all in when we discover prepping. You are at one stage in life and you discover that you need to prepare for another stage.
So when you say in 2 years he has achieved nothing and again reassures us that you are definitely prepped I think you are being a bit unfair to villager. Quite frankly I don't understand the judging ?. Let the man pursue his dream, attract followers and keep us all in the loop for learning and curiosity. I think he knows more than anyone else that he his project has not taken off in the last two years so no reason to point out the obvious while beating your chest on your own achievements. This should be a supportive forum and not a divisive forum.
Kudos to villager for continuing to pursue this and leading others with the same values and ideals :).
Wish I lived closer!!!!!
Kudos to persevering to persevere! villiager has that quality in spades!
and as to Goldie's response
Knuckle, I still like your tourist camp turned SHTF camp..
It would give time to get the tourist camp winterized and wood stoves installed.
The location of that tourist camp might be an issue. I read somewhere recently that some areas, would be swamped with people from the
big cities looking to get out of city with their BOB and BOV to where there is country and water and assuming those cottage countries
are a good place.
Yes, I agree that some camps would have to revamp their camp to better suit the possibilities of winter living. I also agree that many of the camps along the Trans Canada Hwy 17 would be targeted by those out of Winnipeg mostly. The lake of the Woods area around Kenora has many islands that folks have outright bought them and have summer cottages on. Those are not prime locations as you'd be isolated by water and have no game. But the rich would immediately flock to them anyways and I'm sure that these places would see their share of trouble.
But I never worked at these camps and I wouldn't choose any that were so close to civilization anyways. With population the aspect of over fishing and over hunting remains. Go 100 miles back and this is where many wouldn't go as then you need to do things right the first time as there are often no second chances and nature then wins the round. This is where there is no paved roads and cell towers, no population to mention and all who do live here already know how to live here. You are now far enough away that your main worry will be how to survive the winters and combat the mosquitos in the summer. And yet here the camp with cabins close means that you truly have each others back as you eek out a ling much like those ancestors before you did.
So which is better? The chaos of urban survival which likely even expands into regions such as villiager is planning for or the further bug out to a region that at least the odds improve in your favour? There is still much one would have to do to ensure he has a place even here to run to but at least many could then go about the urban lives with a decent plan to follow if SHTF. I already consider that folks will try to take these locations anyways, might as well be some decent folks as trouble makers would make it tougher on all around.
Good ole Henri,
Always tell you why you are not true prepper and he is. Anything less then what he do he lough at. Follow enough of his posts, they all follow a preset script. No offense Henri, just being straight talk rite. No offense rite. 🙄
There are parts of the camp BOL idea that i really like, but when you get right down to it... the urban masses are the ones who send their kids to these places, the ones who go for family weekends or company retreats.
These camps are one of the few rural/remote locations that these city folk are actually aware of, and so, likely to try to reach.
I think you'd be asking for a whole heap of trouble trying to go this route.
It's coming... and it's going to hurt!
There are parts of the camp BOL idea that i really like, but when you get right down to it... the urban masses are the ones who send their kids to these places, the ones who go for family weekends or company retreats.
These camps are one of the few rural/remote locations that these city folk are actually aware of, and so, likely to try to reach.
I think you'd be asking for a whole heap of trouble trying to go this route.
These aren't kids summer camps but tourist resorts. Most of the common customers at the camps I've worked are Americans. Many are repeat customers whose dad first brought them up for fishing 20 years back and now their bringing their kids in turn. This is why such camps are already set up and ready to go in some aspects as an isolated community. Some have insulated walls while others don't. Depends on whether it was built for winter living too.
I'm betting some owners would have family already planning on it's use as a BOL while others don't even consider such aspects at all. I'm sure passers by would fill the place once discovered anyways, so why not have the owners make a profit before hand and those who can't afford such have a chance at applying before someone less appealing does.
If you go into Kenora, you can see where some of the rich spend their money on high class boats as likely park them at their high class homes on their private islands. This somewhat annoys me as were not talking just a few of these but many. I work the camps that serve more the middle class folk but you can watch fishing shows on your TV and see how the rich do it too as some are shown drinking champagne while supposedly fishing. I'm betting some of these rich folk have this region pegged out for a BOL but will likely find themselves the very first targets in a SHTF situation for all know they have all the best of everything.
This is why you don't want to be where the masses might see you and thus suggest you might want to go farther from these main drags! When you look at a map north of Kenora you see no more roads far north as this region is more swampy and heavy bush. But living in the snow belt is not like living elsewhere. Many may own showshoes but few have ever learned how to run in them. Even many of our young no longer have tried them on while those my age were taught how to make snowshoes, skis and canoes in Outdoor Ed in high school, though we lacked in many other basic classes city schools have. Cities have metal detectors to find concealed weapons while we had an outdoor shooting range where you could site in your weapons. The school also possesses the rights to a trap line and teaches this too still today. This region is more populated by natives than white folk and is some of Canada's last frontiers.
If your good in the outdoors, you'll survive but it still won't be easy! And again, you would eventually have to contend with some of the locals if your not invited and that too might be a surprise many don't want. But there is always a chance for those who haven't other options to make deals with camp owners who also don't have many options....THAT is my whole point!
One consideration i'd like to throw into everyone's consciousness here - when speaking of big picture projects that require a lot of capitol and take a long time to put together - the Mennonites are coming.
And they have a ton of cash, and access to tons more because of their economic practices. They live frugal, they don't really pay taxes and they work their women and children nearly as hard as slaves. They undercut agri prices both commercially and non-commercially (farmgate & farmers' market sales) and this allows them to grab huge portions of any ag market they're in.
Traditionally their communities were spread across southern (and to a far lesser extent, central) Ontario. In the past 10 years they have been aggressively expanding into rural areas across the entire province and they're buying up prime agricultural (prepper-perfect) land at an astonishing pace - and sometimes at astonishing expense.
As a result, when a property becomes available that allows them to grow their community or begin inroads to a new one, they're ready to grab it immediately; no haggling the cost, no waiting for something to sit on the market and lose value till the seller is forced to reduce their price.
And they don't just wait for properties to become available either... much like the mafia, they have the bankroll to force offers that landowners simply can't refuse.
A prime example of this is the Douglas, Osceola, Cobden area of Renfrew County. The Mennonite community has exploded just in the last 3 years and they've purchased over $53,000,000 worth of properties and building assets. My own uncle nearly sold to them as they offered him $1.8M for his property which is only valued at $780K - the families convinced him to hold on just a while longer, in case any of us can work something out to keep it in the family.
So, in short, try not to get bogged down too far/too long in the logistics. If your group can't get the ball rolling, someone else surely will.
It's coming... and it's going to hurt!
That's right, Oddmott. It's something i've been watching for several years now.
In terms of prepper-choice land, one consoling thought for me has been that choosing marginal agri-land makes it much less interesting for many people even with bags of money....who see the volume of profit through large fields.
I have long advocated the marginal, along with prepared permaculture savvy, which fewer large-acreage folks are inclined to adopt. These are growing skills amongst the "convinced".
Those larger tracts' produce will more easily be subjected to confiscatory actions.
Of course, there is interest by others for any kind of land available, ...just to acquire it and "have control".
In our case, we have lots of will , and savvy, but lack sufficient cash.(some , unfortunately cannot secure a loan, and others are still waiting to read all the terms. I feel the heat, eh? 🙂
We're working on varying financial terms of supportive shareholders in exchange for their reserved future space , so they can continue to stay in current place till they decide, or realize, it's time. Meanwhile they'd have rights to visit/camp/build anytime till then.
It's been another month or so, and it's encouraging that 1-2 folks have been joining each week...bringing a great new assortment of complementary skills. Of course that all has to ultimately translate into commitment to the described criteria which we've developed to date, and the joint ability to purchase, in this lull time of winter. We're still hoping that no-one scoops it before us.
Meanwhile, i've become convinced that promoting clusters of yurts would be an additional , economical way of getting quickly started in spring/summer....with minimal investment materially, leaving more fore-planned-cash available for investing in the initial property purchase.
With fairly simple platform-sectional bases, this would leave more time also for vital infrastructure work done before the following cold-season.
Later, as folks get more earthy-established/cabin oriented, the yurts could be rented out/used for workshops/retreats, visitors who want to trial the village experience without final commitment. And, in the end they are portable equity for anyone who may change their minds....whereas a "tiny house trailer" has an expensive , permanent undercarriage, especially if galvanized. In fact a 20' one is as expensive as a medium-sized yurt itself.
On the other hand, i was also toying with the idea of putting a yurt inside a larger diameter,(yurt-shaped) grain-storage unit as an option for extra security/food storage, etc....with discreet window panels , of course. (beauty in the eye of the beholder 🙂
These are more costly than containers, new,...but can fit in pieces, on a narrow, shorter trailer which can get further, into tighter spaces, and bolted together onsite without much manipulation. I've seen used ones for a couple $k. and pre-tarnished zinc.
This goes way back to the ideas which i had as a youth working on tongue-and groove cement silo building one summer, but then they require a much more secure foundation.
Just some rambling speculations....
villager