😆 JAB, love it!! 😆

.... Have they been a lifelong friend, and loyal and trusting and all the good stuff, but have not prepped? You have to let them in because they have proved their loyalty, but maybe not their prepping skills.

The truth is, there is strength in numbers, and if you are the type to be a leader, maybe you will not mix with a bunch of people who have already decided how to approach the SHTF issue before they even talked to you or met you. Maybe you need a bunch of hard working disciples. People who have proved their worth as good hard working people to you but are willing to take leadership from you because you have the land, supplies, animals, etc. etc.

I think we all have the sense to determine what people in our lives are solid and what people are flakes. I think a person's character should determine whether they are accepted into your group rather than their supplies...

Another reason I say this is that supplies run out, tools break, stashes get looted... eventually you may be on the run with these people with only what you can carry on your back. It will be hard work and ingenuity that will save you. If you surround yourself with quick learners no matter what their preparedness level is, you might have the best chance.

Fishin_E, your thoughts and opinions are exactly matched with those of my husband. He has known our friend for twenty years, me for about half of that. He has always been a loyal and trustworthy person with good practical and life skills. We also must include into the equation that we are no "spring chickens" and getting older everyday. If illness or accident were to strike one of us (or both) during a disaster, we would be in a very difficult predicament on our own. We also live in a fairly isolated rural area with very few other people and most are around our age or older.

I feel so long as we have some hard rules laid out right from the start he could be an asset, rather than be viewed as another mouth to feed.

If I knew someone to be a willing learner with a strong work ethic, they would be welcome if they showed up sans supplies. The problem would be if they were tailing significant others that were dyed in the wool prima donnas. If that was deemed unfixable, they would have to keep going.

This world is rife with political correctness. If SHTF then any friends mouths you fill will take away from those dear to you that have sacrificed time and money beside you as you prepare. I haven't read the blog link yet and will in a moment but I just had to comment. Our moral obligations will change as we eat our pumkin soup. It is nice to think that we can help those that come along in need, but once you've fed them because you feel a moral obligation will you then be able to turn them out? I've talked to some that believe the world is doing just fine and there is no need to "Prep", I've also talked with many that have quietly stalked away food and other supplies. What you have to imagine and learn to deal with is when a single mother comes knocking with a small child. You let one in what about the next one or the next one because that's the reality of it. If you and your family isn't appearing at food lines, aid stations, your house or shelter has lights on, your appearance shows your doing o.k. people will start coming and asking, they will know and you will be faced with sharing what you have and using your stocks or turning them away so that you have enough to last as long as possible.

Since the title is Moral Obligations perhaps we should talk about ethics since this post seems to have digressed into the relm of Narcissism and the justifications for moral compomise. This is one of the problems of having many friends in my developing years with M Div attached to their name or Doctorate of theology. Last year, I cut one Prepper aquaintence loose. I had wondered if he would be an asset to the group I was trying to build. After waisting my time with him I eventualy realised that he would "Do anything to keep himself and his family alive". Good thing I never showed him my place. You will never be able to trust someone like that because they never developed a personal ethos of Honor and Sacrifice. Lets cut through the "Im doing it for my family" BS excuse. That person will cut and run right at the moment I need someone watching my back...or worse.

Im reminded of an old morality story based on a true account. A monk of some religion( I have forgotten wich ) was traveling with 2 other religious men in a snow storm that was threatening their lives. They came apon a dieing man overcome by the cold. The monk asked the other two to help but they pleaded with him to save himself (I think justifying it was gods will). They left the monk behind that decided to carry the man. Long story short, He gets the man to safety. The extra heat of the excertion kept them both alive. The two others committed to saving their lives froze to death.

Lets bring in another story of survival failed. There is a famouse photograph of a starving ethopian child trying to crawl to the next town. A vulture walks beside him. The photographer that took the famouse shot was rushing to the airport. He was a well experienced war journalist and had been taught not to be emotionaly involved with his subject matter. Long story short, He killed himself shortly after because he could not live with the memory and his inaction.

A solo Prepping "Family"(see above) is an already dead family, hiding and cowering like rabbits. No amount of guns will save you without many hand to hold them.
I did alot of work this year, experimenting, figuring out that I could keep maybe 4 other people from starving to death indefinatly (Im a pessimist so that might be 6 but Im only willing to trust 4). Give me just 4 more people to work and I could save 20. Thats My prepping goal. Its not charity. Its also self preservation. Anything else means all of my prepps are absolutely useless and I might as well give up and take more vacations. Im just waiting around for some organised group(or one stealthy individual) to take what I have worked towards.
If Your only goal is Survival, You have a 100% chance of failure. Death is inevitable. Chose to live well. Save as many as you can. If your survival plan doesnt already include saving others... buck up and start figuring it out.
Do you remember back to before YOU figured out that things will turn bad and you should start prepping. According to the Narcissist Prepper, You were somehow evil and lazy back then and deserved to die because of your lack forthought. Bullshit. You just hadnt figured it out by then just like those that havent figured it out yet. If You have figure it out (There before fate, luck, or the grace of god, go I) Ya, You have a "Moral Obligation".

I can't say that I agree with all your statements because you have taken some leaps in logic and have used a too broader brush to paint all preppers and prepping situations. Prepping runs the gamut from 72 hour preparedness to full blown sustainability.

Statements like " A solo Prepping "Family"(see above) is an already dead family, hiding and cowering like rabbits." and "If Your only goal is Survival, You have a 100% chance of failure. Death is inevitable." are both ill conceived and inaccurate.

There are some unlikely scenarios in the most severe of situations where groups become a necessity. In those cases for the group to survive the individuals moral obligation has to be to the group. In other situations if you have a family your obligations must be to them.

Well, I have been Known for being overly Dramatic 😀 LOL

I accept the critism abour the 72 hour type. Sorry, I guess I forget about those prepparing for storms and short term emergencies. I generaly think of those things as a bonus. Im prepping for systemic, multi generational, breakdown. My Bad

There is the scenario that you have over looked. The one that you let a "friend" into your group, to take any more than "him or her" would over taxed the group. They insist that you take in their siblings also. You refuse and they take out a gun and forces you and yours out. In a time of crisis, sometimes compassion and moral obligation can get you and your family, killed.

There is the scenario that you have over looked. The one that you let a "friend" into your group, to take any more than "him or her" would over taxed the group. They insist that you take in their siblings also. You refuse and they take out a gun and forces you and yours out. In a time of crisis, sometimes compassion and moral obligation can get you and your family, killed.

Well, lets persue this reasoning allittle further. Last week a prepper was killed in her bed by her son before going on the shooting spree. I mentioned things like that would become regular ocurences a couple of posts ago about a slow crash. Im sure you are thinking at the moment, jesus Cern, You realy do take some big jumps. It drives My PHD wife crazy. :geek: .In Dmity Orlovs, The 5 Stages Of Collapse, at the end Family members begin hoarding away from each other and eventualy dispand to compete over scarce resorces. (Im use to street kids but recent images from Russia of kids age 4 to 10 alone and living like the homeless you are used to seeing, is an image I am haveing trouble getting out of my head.) Using the same logic as above (No disrespect to ranger) I cant advocate a new morality that justifies preparing to fight off your children or wife. (Considering my 2 X wives, Im not sure I can follow my own advice 😆 ) Look, I already mentioned the LifeBoat theory and Im not ignoring it. Fore those readers not familiar, A lifeboat is filled and they try to take one more person on so the boat sinks and every one dies. Im not saying hard choices wont have to be made but lets talk about the second lifeboat. We'll call it 'The foolish prepper lifeboat'. On it is one man surounded by swimmers. He knows the lifeboat theory so he takes his ore and bashes the swimmers so they cant sink his boat. He justifies that its the swimmers fault that they are in the water and if they wernt so lazy, they would have got to a boat first. He tries to paddle away from them but he cant because he cant paddle and defend the boat at the same time. Its a losing battle and the boat fills up. Now the new boat members row away from the crowd so they are not all drowned....But they are alittle pissed at duche bag prepper guy. They toss him over so they can go rescue one more deserving person that isnt a Duche because they know from experience that he is activly trying to kill them and cant be trusted. Move over Mother Goose. This is Papa Cern.

Look, the answer to your "Desperate freind with a gun" problem is simple (Simple but not easy). If you have a group of 10 to 20 people, some preppers, some helping the under prepaired, your desperate freind is far less likely to try something stupid. You just cant cushion against all situations like your son shooting you wile you sleep. Deciding to be "evil for jesus" isnt a helpfull moral choice. Complex social relationship building is hard. Getting preppers to work together is like hearding cats but the answer shouldnt be a rejection of Homo Sapiens complex social structure in favour of Cromagnon individual family dog eaters. They couldnt compete and are no longer around.

And besides. My warrior days are fading. This breakdown may drag on for a few more decades. My elbows are going and at some point, Im going to need some young bucks to cut firewood and turn soil. Thats not going to happen If I am too cowardly to take some risks with people. I need to be a friend to them now to build nessisary alegences. For me to count on them, they will need to know they can count on me. This is why I have 50+ squashes sitting in the cool guest room. They grew on their own and the seeds were free because I took them from last years plant. It just takes some forthought. Next year, The priority build is an outhouse size solar dehydrator so I can save all the apples and such, to store for animal food...or starving guests. Its win win for me.

Look, We have some realy smart,.... nerd level smart people on this network. Ild like to challenge ALL OF YOU to turn on the assorted squirl cages and have all of you start creatively thinking up ways to feed several people. Like I said, Its win win. If you suddenly decide that your friends blow and they can rot, You have still massivly increased your own personal food supply

(Appendix....since I now have to start quoting reference material 😆 . Cromagnon man was far stronger and more likely to survive...but The wives and children sceletons showed breaks and signs usually associated with men because they had to perform the same hunting tasks. They also diddnt develope the relationship with dogs that kept homosapien man safer. Also cromags were known for cannibalism of family members because all their bones have cut marks on them associated with butchering.(Though its not known if the practice was ritual or competition) Like I said, my referencing, drives my Dr of sociology wife as crazy as when I take shortcut logic jumps 🙄 ) all the best

Appendix # 2... :ugeek: .Here is a Dmity Orlov for dummies sort of Vid. Enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCasHOQYYzs&noredirect=1
Might as well add this one as well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPgfOShs_Mk

Groups can offer great incentives to be apart of if SHTF but there is also a down side to groups aside from the amount of food one needs to sufficiently feed you have politics, emotions and group dynamics. I don't have a PHD or any other letters before my name but I have worked with people a great deal. Troubled youth for over 15 years and now adults for the past 15. I see daily how utterly diabolical or evil fellow man can be. The Life boat analogy is just dandy but after they've done away with the "douche bag" they begin to argue about the direction in which they should steer the lifeboat and begin to argue their opinions with each other. The situation escalates until they begin clubbing each other with the oars killing one another. I don't put enough faith in people to believe they can have relationships that would be able to withstand the hardships and struggles associated with survival. X amount of people = x amount of opinions. Opinions that are not accepted create bitterness, contempt and anger.
While I believe that most people would be better off on their own for the most part(trading, bartering etc with others excluded) I believe there will be some that do well in groups. I just don't believe that this will be the norm. Most groups will be autocratic and militant. It is not about being a coward it is about survival. To begin name calling because you don't agree with someone's opinion shows that you would not be a leader that most people would want to follow.

Yes, I do have a Bikers mouth...and I do go for the shock value. Once again its a problem with this medium of comunication. If you were sitting in the room with me, you would realise there would be a big friendly grin of comraudery and a jab in the shoulder wile saying it. Using "coward" is as much for my benefit to remind myself not to be one and to push myself harder anf farther.
Next, I am definately not refering to all preppers. Im one obviously. So are a few of my freinds. For every 10 well ajusted preppers exploring their options, there realy is one "Duchebag Prepper" and they pull us all down. Worse, they play off the baser instincts and become a bad influence. Rarely are we willing speak up and say, "Bull shit". Once again, Its as much for my benefit. My point has been that we can not afford to shut off our concience and become amimals. I did that for certain years of my life and it was truely Unsurvivable. Thats why I decided to speak up. I originaly sent the "Welcome to Paradice" Blog. Later, My concience started harrassing me for about a week before I decided to speak up, basicly saying "Cern, I expect more from you. Your words may influence wether someone lives or dies and wether that choice can be lived with after. All you did was give people the easy answer".

Hey, it's just a conversation. I have a grin as well and appreciate the ability to b.s. about the pro's and con's of surviving through the quagmire. I understand what you are saying I just have a different view is all. I've been working in a very negative environment for way too long. I see the ease in which people can digress to very hostile primitive forms daily. I believe it gives me insight into what my come to pass when people are left to themselves to survive. I won't allow myself to believe that things will be somewhat civil if SHTF. It will be every man or group for themselves. People will want what you have. People will not be turned away easily and if they are will return in force if it pertains to their ultimate survival, even for one more day.
I believe our "moral beliefs" will have to adapt to the "New Reality" that we will face in what is left after SHTF. People will actively search out those that have and some of those people will only want to take. Turning them away will not be an easy task sometimes. Turning them away can put one's group at risk as desperate people will do desperate things. I have no false reality about how bad it will be and I don't know if even I will be able to survive in this environment.
I spent a year living in the back country, Day to day existence is very labor intensive. Thank god I could 4x4 or hike out to the store in the nearest town for supplies. Growing your own food is very hard. The prep work and upkeep is very time consuming and physical. Basic things like acquiring food and then storing can be huge issues. Food staples like bread can be unattainable. Salt, Flour or an equivalent substance will be rare Lifespan would be shortened dramatically for people. If it's more than a flood or earthquake food supplies will run out at some point and foraging will begin.
Imagine the stress that would put on a group. Is everyone mentally capable of handling this? I've seen strong people deteriorate in stressful situations. That's one thing I am very knowledgeable about is stress. I work in a very stressful environment. I've seen it's long term effect on people, experienced it's long term effect in my own life. You can take a very "sane" person and immerse them in a long term high stress position and watch what unfolds. It changes a person and not always to the better.
A good example would be the Donner family in the Sierra Nevada mountains. They were stalked with supplies, were very moral people and had like minded goals. They found themselves in an emergency situation. Trapped. Morality left them. They split into smaller groups, supplies ran out. Decisions were made to survive. Remember these were very religious people. The lines between right and wrong were very clear to them. They had made personal decisions in each of their lives to follow a "higher" road. The belief system is a very deep personal walk, I believe about as deep as one can get. Yet they put those beliefs and convictions aside and crossed lines that "Normal" society would never dream about crossing all in the name of survival.
When SHTF those lines will become blurry, and justification will come easy for some very heinous acts. It is not a pretty picture, not one that we want to really look honestly at. Yes our words may influence whether someone lives or dies but the reality is that many will live and die, but that's the grim reality. If you can't live with those decisions needing to be made daily then it will be a short existence in that future. Oh yeah in that lifeboat scenario the douche bag pulls out a 9mm and shoots all that attempt to climb in the lifeboat. He then strips their bodies of all usable items and rows to shore himself and begins to eeck out a very hard existence. LOL, I don't personally like the thought of that future but I strongly believe it's reality.

Like most things, Its an issue of Balence. I try to be that balence on this board. I often rag on the tacticool guys that have more guns than food But I have alot of really cool gear myself and I know its value. Yes I have lived through my own SHTF experience...a few times...includeing being homeless as a child so good on you. Ive seen the worst of humans. The point I am trying to balence out here is that starting out as "Duche" isnt a great beginning. Me, I'm set now by shear luck after being scooped from the edge of death. Ive got all the nessissary "Stuff". Im in the right Location. Indefinate survival is possible for me. Ive also come to grips with that I have Zero chance of survival...If I can not gather people. If I gather them, I better have the ability to feed them and have enough people around me that have already been proven to not " Duche" easaly, to be a buffer and provide a sence of continued civility for others under stress to have to live up to.

Sounds good. Your right it is about balance, just finding that balance will be an ongoing battle.