C5,
Good clip. A good team can achieve great things. A great team can achieve anything.
Much better to be working toward a common goal than to be sitting solo in a bunker waiting for a "zombie" horde to come knocking.
MM.
Give a man afish and you feed him for a day, teach him to fish and you feed him for a life time.
When in doubt think it out...(you thought I was gonna say something else?)
This is why I truly like this site. Nuggets of gold in discussions like these.
A question: What if the not so desirables are family? Alcoholic (guess what...SHTF detox!), mentally disabled, just plain odd, have attitude issues, you don't necessarily mind so-and-so but their kids and kids' kids... uggh... Family fights during the best of times, I'd hate to see the squabble during the worst of times but how do you turn immediate family away? Or do you just try to deal with it the best you can? It's FAMILY. The kind you invite over for Christmas and are happy they come but happy they leave too. 😆
Just trying to keep the discussion going as I think it's a great one to keep people thinking and is important to kind of have some idea of what decisions you will make before SHTF.
Cheers.
“The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world that it leaves to its children.”
― Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Some of the very best family is those I have CHOSEN to include in my life as well as those who have chosen ME. I long ago lost the idea that blood assigns ireffutable responsibility for anyone. In the end each will make their own decisions but the object of the excercise is to survive and to hopefully improve the gene pool. I see no reason to stand in the way of Darwin and all he tries to accomplish every day.
JAB
I hold no moral obligation to non-preppers. Everyone we see lives in the same world we do, they all see what goes on around us, if others choose to turn a blind eye and not even try to prepare to help themselves then they better not expect me to help them.
I don't expect this to be much of an issue for me anyway. I keep fairly quiet about my Preps, and those that do know that I try and be prepared are either somewhat prepared themselves or are far enough away that they likely wouldn't make it to my place anyway and far as neighbors go I'm already known as the crazy guy on the street who flips out when people decide not to respect my property rights, if your invited or ask permission in advance no problem, but otherwise look out! So its unlikely neighbors would be silly enough to show up looking for hand outs, they already know how that would end.
So I have no problem with turning away people in a SHTF situation. That being said, a hungry child shows up at my door and well, I know I cannot and will not turn them away and sadly that may be lead to my undoing in a SHTF world.
A few hungry scared people are not the real concern, the one to worry about is the man with a straving child, he's the dangerous one.
DaScribbler
________________________
Non-preppers are like people who find Jesus when in the Emergency Room. Their attitudes are likely to change quickly in a serious disaster, and become either very cooperative or very antagonistic. The latter folks will be easy to weed out in the first month or two after civlization collapse.
It is the so-called existing community leaders that concern me. These are usually narrow-minded non preppers who think themselves too privileged to change, even as the Titantic goes below the surface. They run the show now, and fully intend to run the show after a disaster even if it kills themselves and everybody they are responsible for. That kind of arrogance is widespread and the biggest threat that I see to human existence.
In a round about way I faced this issue some ten years back, when the community I lived in was going through its own form of economic disaster response caused by a collapse in the major industry in town. People there wanted me to be Mayor because of experience in Economic development, because those that knew me understood how I had a solid plan to diversify and rebuild. The majority of people in the town were a very demoralized but determined bunch. Many of their families having to move out west to find work. The community was left to deal with a lot of second-stringer mental types that would not leave as they knew full well their personalities would not serve them well in the real world. These people seemed to take over the role of "citizen importus" in many of the key local organizations.
I twigged to the idea of having a Transition style community that could sell all the abandoned homes to Preppers from away, so that they could have a place to move to in the event of a USA meltdown in the cities. I has spoken to many American (and oddly European) tourists that visited that remote part of Canada with just such a goal in mind. The market was there, and it would have revitalized the old community with new earnest people that spent their summers supporting the local economy.
I spent over a year of my live organizing, meeting with, volunteering with and generally trying to get those people to work together for a better future. The biggest problem was non-prep people who had influence in the community, but did not want the competition that someone "from away" posed to their little existing empires.
In the end all of my work was a waste of a year, as everything was shot down by the political antics of those local scene stealers. They did the usual small town back biting and power mongering to a level that forced me to step away from it all, else become worse then they are to accomplish anything. These "influencial" types were non-preppers and well established as personalities in the community. To me these are more dangerous then people who turn up on the doorstep, as the latter group are more likely to be cooperative in taking steps to survive as a group then those who are locally established and pig-headed about all change. For me it was an even bigger economic disaster, and like the other smart ones I saw the writing on the wall and moved away.
I used to feel a moral obligation to these people as I grew up around them. Not any more. Now I too am looking for a new community for my homestead as a result. I often ask myself that if a nation-wide disaster hit would I be able to go back there and try to mend fences in the face of the bad rep I got from the local non-prep bullies. I seriously doubt that I would.
On a side note, the next major community over from where I lived took the same idea and ran with it and now they are a major player on the destination of choice for tourists looking for remote homesteads. I will give that community credit where due. They organized under a common flag of a wealthy local and built a healthy local economy for themselves. My community the last time I visited there was still a depressed and failing place, with more and more elderly people dying off and leaving the handful of families left as the keepers of a failing flame.
So to that end I would say choose your homestead location carefully. Human politics will always trump surival logic, the same what that politics always trumps hard work.
Just two cents.......
I know this mentality well. I figured that al little of it might be due to severely stressed gene pool. 😈
I found they are almost impossible to work with so I usually work around them. Should TSHTF they would be a complete detriment to their community.
If they dont know you have it, they will not show up.
Hello gents and ladies !
this is my 2nd post. I fully support with the post of cernunnos 5.
I don't think morality is what driven you to help your friend but the reality of needing others will make you help your friend.
Human beings are societal, pack animals. Taking care of others is not just because
that makes us feel good but we need each other to survive and strive.
I have a strong military background. We all learn that without others in harsh situation, no matter how strong you are individually you are finished.
It's too bad this topic hasn't carried on.Great posts.Fantastic read.All along, the wisecracks and jabs at my committment to being prepared were running through my mind.I can see that the people that join these networks are as serious as me and I would not hesitate for a second to help a fellow prepper in need.I hope to be able to find and join a group intent on building a community when the shtf.I have no problem with being one of the ants in that hill.I haven't given my experience much thought til now.I now realize that I have a huge amount of knowledge and experience to offer and teach.I feel really good after reading the survivalblog.I now know what decision to make when I would be faced with the similar problems.Thanks.
Frugal....if you read the survivalblog.com posted by Cernonnus5 on page 6,you would have the answer to your querie. Greenenergy...would you mind if I used your post? I know of a town that I would like to post it in the local newspaper.I too grew up in a town like that and it breaks my heart to see what is happening to it.You are so bang on.Great emotion in this topic.I feel like I have seen the light that shines on serious preppers.I feel like I don't have to hide anymore about being a prepper.Thanks.
I've read a wide variety of opinion regarding one's moral or ethical obligations to others on this thread. Ultimately though, I think that the obligation is to oneself. If you can live with yourself given the decisions you make, then you have met your ethical obligations. Since the details of the event which created the ethical dilemma are both hypothetical and ambiguous, none of us really know how we will react. We like to see ourselves in such a way that is consistent with our personal self image whether it be supportive, authoritarian, strong, etc. Until we actually have to face adversity, and unless we have already faced similar adversity like those of you who have served for us, we won't really know for sure. It is a useful exercise to consider how you might react given adverse situations; don't be too surprised though if your true actions don't match with your considered ones.
Antsy
Needs must when the devil drives.
No truer words spoken Antsy.What's that saying about crossing the bridge? If,like you said,a person has crossed that bridge,then all that is left is consequences.In the case of our decision to this matter,it has to be quick and final.If not,emotions become a player in our decision and you know where that could lead.Regrets.Philantropists set up missions.Preppers set up bol's.
I know how I reacted when we had the big black out for 3 days. I fed the neighborhood. I baked and severed tea, coffee, etc on my front lawn every morning. I spent those 3 days teaching people or trying to teach them (most stayed drunk) about what to do. This was all before I ever heard the word prepper.
I no longer live in that neighborhood and don't know my neighbors now except to wave hello in passing. I think part of helping is the connection that you feel before something happens when it comes to sharing food and water.
That being said. I know most of my neighbors are good people. When I had the house fire I had only been in the house 2 weeks. One young couple did an amazing job of trying to help, including getting a cat cage to try to get my critters out. If push came to shove, still not sure if I would share my food or water with them.
Sometimes while I'm building another sturdy shelving unit to stay ahead of our growing supplies, I think about what I'd do if the neighbours did come to the door during the crisis. Many have bought outdoor equipment from us as we recycle the older items into newer, or lighter gear; they've discussed harvest canning with me and know that my husband and I usually do things as a team (so we are in the same place at the same time). If they don't come here I'll be perplexed!
They'll have something to offer or walk is the final answer. We work at being strong, secure and we practice our survival skills; so neither the threat of gossip nor gospel could get another body in the door empty handed (soft hearted me thinks I might if the grand-kids are still young and here alone 💡 and we need a storyteller)!